I think that it’s essentially like understanding how to pitch yourself.

From a very early age, I knew that there was like one minute to tell my story, and I had to be like that.

And I think that we don’t realize enough.

I was recently in a room, let’s say, with other older founders, and it was still there was a one-minute pitch, how to introduce yourself, and they couldn’t do it.

And I realized that the next thing that we needed to bring in was actually like how to master your one-minute pitch because essentially you have so little time to get someone’s attention, and what you say is make or break.

You know what I mean?

And I feel like understanding that power of the pitch from a very early age, to me, really…

No Bullsh*t Talks is a podcast for Entrepreneurs by entrepreneurs.

There’s too much bullsh*t out there, especially when it comes to business.

This podcast aims to highlight what’s true and what’s not in the world of entrepreneurship, bringing you honest and raw conversations about the rollercoaster that is entrepreneurship.

Each week, my guest will be a high-performing entrepreneur sharing the ups and downs of their journey and helping you prepare for the road ahead while providing you with actionable insights and absolute gems of knowledge.

Stay tuned as I introduce this week’s guest.

Avital Eusgeld is the founder of HiPitched Agency, a strategic brand agency based in Israel.

Avital is an expert in brand strategy, storytelling, and pitching.

She started her career in Washington, DC, working next to the most powerful people in office before moving to London and working at the Israeli Embassy helping startups.

I present to you this week’s guest, Avital Eusgeld.

[Music]

Welcome Avital to the podcast today.

I’m so excited that you’ve come all the way here to join me on the podcast.

I’m excited.

So you’ve come how far?

I’m going to make this pretend that you’ve done this just for me.

So you’ve come from where today?

I’ve come from Israel, but I’m staying in the UK for the weeks with my parents who live here.

So yes, that is how far I’ve come.

I know.

I feel like that’s the furthest.

I’m going to see how far I can get people to come.

We did have someone come from Scotland, so that was quite an effort actually.

Another person is coming from Scotland next week as well.

So there you go.

People are traveling, and I feel I’m going to pretend that you’ve obviously flown in just for this.

Yeah.

But we’ve only just kind of got acquainted.

I feel like I’ve known you for a long time.

We just chat and it’s great.

Great.

But I would love for you to explain who you are and what you do to all my viewers who may not know who you are.

Okay, fine.

So I’m Avital. I’m originally from London.

My accent is still quite strong, and I’m one of three girls.

My mom is one of three girls, and all of her sisters only had girls.

So to say that there was a lot of female energy growing up would sort of be an understatement.

She was also one of the first female stockbrokers on the London Stock Exchange.

You never really want to be like your parents, so growing up I would always say I just want to be a stay-at-home mom.

Not even just because now I realize that is beyond a full-time career, but I was really kind of passionate about that.

Around the age of 17, I got more into politics.

I was studying politics for GCSE and A-Level, and I was like, okay fine, I really like this and I’m going to see what happens.

So I decided to study that at university, and I realized I was actually, I wouldn’t say even more ambitious, but it was clear to me that I really did want to work.

That was really a shift in my mind where things really changed.

From there, I took a gap year and I went to study in Israel for the year.

Then I went back to university, and in that first summer I went to Washington to work for a non-profit which bridges the gap between Democrats and Republicans.

It was this startup kind of world in the sense there were like 15 members of staff and then there were 100 interns.

It was really insane, the energy.

Americans have a longer summer than the Brits, so we arrived at this program like a month late.

All the Americans had kind of got their place in the office and knew where they were going.

There was just me and one other Brit from the bigger program that we’d come from in the UK to intern.

We’re all interning at this company, and essentially it was like, well, how am I going to stand out?

They said that they were doing an event for all the biggest donors, and whoever signs up the most people to come to the other part of the event, which was citizens, they wanted loads of citizens to come out for their new announcement.

They were doing a donor event the evening before.

They said whoever gets to sign up the most citizens for this event gets to have a one-on-one with the CEO, who was actually Clinton’s 2008 fundraiser, and she was fantastic.

So I was like, I’m going to get this.

I’m going to get this.

I’m going to have this one-on-one with this woman.

Anyway, I basically signed up the group that I’d come from from the UK with, which was like 40 people, and I won the competition.

I was just like, you’ve all got to show up in your lunch break.

So they all came.

I realized essentially that she was super busy, and I said to her, listen, don’t worry about this lunch, but actually I know you’re having the donor event and I’d love to attend.

Not even the staff was able to attend.

It was very intimate.

There were only three staff members going, let alone all the interns.

She was like, listen, a little bit of chutzpah, but yeah, you can come.

I thought it would be like The Devil Wears Prada, in that scene where she’s coming in and they’re at a fashion show in Paris, and she’s telling the CEO, don’t ask anything about this person, the son’s in rehab, don’t ask about the wife, she just got divorced, all this kind of thing.

I was memorizing all these random facts about the guest list.

I walk into the event and she just said to me, Avital, network like you’ve never networked before.

I was like, this is wild.

What does that even mean?

You were meeting George Bush’s Chief of Staff.

You were meeting congressmen and senators.

I had this English accent where they were all like, you must be at Cambridge.

I was like, okay, exactly.

I was like, okay fine, this is wild.

I just ran with it.

I left and I got all these business cards.

Then I was rooming with this girl who was really smart.

She was at LSE and I was at Birmingham.

I was like, okay, she’s great.

I went home and told her all about the evening and all the business cards.

I went to throw them in the bin.

I was like, what are we going to do with all these business cards?

Great.

She was like, what you’re going to do is follow up with each and every one, and you’re going to ask them for coffee while you’re here.

I was like, damn, yeah, okay.

So I basically went through this list.

That was really, at 18 years old, when I learned how to effectively network, work a room, leave an impression, and see the value.

I literally followed up with every person saying, British girl, follow-up from this.

I got so many yeses.

I spent the rest of the summer meeting people for coffee.

Then I was the only one offered a full-time job out of the hundred interns.

They were like, don’t go back to university.

We’ll offer you a job.

Stay.

I was like, seems a bit wild.

I’m not going to stay, but I will come back next summer.

The next summer they paid me.

I was like, I’m not denying getting paid for a summer in Washington.

I was like, this is great.

That was kind of where it all started.

It wasn’t exactly what I wanted, but I went back to the UK at that point.

Essentially, I was still very interested in politics, but I moved to work for an embassy.

I was working on bringing more investment to the country.

In that role, I knew I wanted to go into venture capital.

So from venture capital, I then decided that I would move to Israel.

Essentially, that would probably be where I went into another venture capital fund.

During this time, I had 80 coffees.

When I got off the plane, I knew absolutely no one.

After every coffee I was like, who should I speak to next?

Would you mind connecting me?

I was like, this is wild.

Everyone was like, sure, happy to help.

They just made the connection.

This was a great coffee.

You should meet Avital.

She’s just moved here.

At this point I’m 23, and I’ve moved to this country with nothing.

No network whatsoever.

I was like, I’m going to work in a venture capital fund.

And I did.

I got a job at Reid Hoffman’s fund in Israel.

I was like, this is great.

This is literally a wild thing.

I was Head of Value Creation.

I was like, cool, I’ve done this for the government sector and now I’m going to do it in the private sector.

While I was there, all these people from the portfolio companies were coming to me saying, who should I go to for my branding?

Who should I go to for my storytelling?

I was like, you’re going to come to me.

I’m going to set up a business.

So at 24, I set up a branding agency.

That’s probably a good pause point just to be like, now I run a branding agency.

This is what I do.

But that’s how I got there.

That is one of the coolest backstories.

You’re like a little kid.

Basically, we all think we’re really knowledgeable at 17 or 18, but we’re not.

You’ve gone over to America.

You’ve gone over to the White House.

Essentially that’s what they mean, right?

You’re in the most powerful place.

It’s insane.

Instead of being intimidated, you’re like, right, I’m going to work the room.

I’m going to get to know people.

Your roommate gave you advice that I would never have been able to follow at the age of 18 or 19.

That would have been terrifying.

She’s like, no, you’re going to follow up and you’re going to do this.

You met some of the most powerful people in the world at that age.

That just is the power of networking.

It smashes gender barriers and age barriers.

You did this as a teenage girl in a foreign country.

Sure, it’s the same language, but it’s nuts.

It shows you that these people still gave you the time of day because they saw something in you.

I feel like that’s a huge message to anyone out there who’s really young right now thinking, I’m not going to be able to get a look in because I’m just this 21-year-old girl.

There were a lot of people I met the other day, a bunch of new business owners, and they’re all really young.

They’re like, oh, but we’re young and people don’t think we’re good enough.

That is the proof that you can still get a look in.

These are people who were in the White House.

Like you said, Chief of Staff to George Bush.

These people don’t have the time to casually go to coffee with some random British girl.

So they obviously saw something.

They believe in the power of networking.

If you don’t put yourself out there, and obviously it’s painful because you get rejected, you’re never going to make it.

Like you said, your journey after that has just been unbelievable.

Reid Hoffman and everything else.

This is just crazy.

If you didn’t do that when you were a teenager, you would never be where you are now.

I just think that’s crazy.

I think you’re right.

I think that it’s essentially like understanding how to pitch yourself.

From a very early age, I knew that there was like one minute to tell my story.

I had to be ready.

I think we don’t realize enough.

I was recently in a room with other older founders, and there was still a one-minute pitch to introduce yourself.

They couldn’t do it.

I realized that the next thing we needed to bring in was actually how to master your one-minute pitch.

Essentially, you have so little time to get someone’s attention, and what you say is make or break.

You know what I mean?

I feel like understanding that power of the pitch from a very early age really helped me.

So what was your one-minute pitch when you were just a teenager?

I don’t remember.

That’s the thing.

I think I just said, listen, I was chosen as one person to intern.

I’m here from the UK.

I’m studying politics and international relations.

I spent my year in Israel prior to this.

I took a gap year.

I found it really useful.

Especially because at that time they were raising the university fees.

If I didn’t take that year out, I would have paid like £3,000, and if I did, it was £9,000.

It was a really hard decision, and I still took it.

It was absolutely the making of me.

I kind of just told those small facts about myself.

But that positions yourself so well.

Even those small things.

I was one of the few who got chosen.

That means you’re actually good at what you do.

You’re obviously intelligent.

You put yourself there.

You’re traveling to another country.

It means you’re brave enough and have that skill.

You also took a year and went to Israel.

It shows something.

Even just showing all that, what you’re studying, it highlights all these skills of resilience and curiosity.

They’re really admirable traits in someone you want to employ and speak to.

Even just dropping those little things is really good.

People just don’t realize it.

I think that’s the power.

It’s telling your story over and over again.

Also meeting new people.

The more times you do it, the better you get, like anything.

I would say though, just as a disclaimer, there was a lot of failure.

I retook my A-levels three times.

Originally I was predicted A’s.

I worked really hard.

It just didn’t happen.

It was really challenging.

My parents didn’t mind.

It was me.

I was like, I can do better.

I retook them until I got the results I wanted.

It was a very difficult journey.

As a child, I was a really heavy kid.

In my last year of school, I decided that I was going to lose weight.

I went to the gym at 5:30 a.m. nearly every day in my last year of school.

I just wanted to be the best version of me.

There were so many things I needed to overcome.

I feel like it’s very interesting when people say, oh, this person just knew what to do.

There was a lot of failure.

I feel like that’s also a really important part of the message.

Wow.

I was thinking we were probably in Birmingham at the same time.

When you say this, because you were talking about the years.

No, but I went to school across the road.

I used to pop over to the campus when I was in sixth form and pretend I was a student.

So I would have been there.

Because you were saying about the fees.

I went the last year before the fees went up when I went to university.

So we may have been around at the same time.

I know the University of Birmingham campus really well.

It was a great place to be.

Yeah, it was.

I would also say that university was a very big moment as well because I was actually, I was president of the Jewish Society, and that was the biggest in the country.

There was also a committee of 20 people that I had to lead.

You had to put on Friday night dinners for nearly 400 people every week.

Doing those things and running a committee at such a young age, people underestimate the power of societies at university or college, whatever.

I was also the editor of the newspaper, and I led ski trips.

I was like everything there was.

I really wanted to do things and get involved.

My sisters are 10 and 12 years older than me, and they were like, that’s the best advice for uni.

Just give it your all and don’t be like, I’m too cool for this.

So I was really invested in everything.

When I took on being head of that Jewish Society, people were like, you are nuts.

How are you going to juggle this?

I was like, I’m just going to do it.

It was a real commitment.

You had to put on events all the time.

You had to do charity things.

You had to be involved in debates.

It was crazy.

I was 18 or 19 at this point.

What you didn’t realize is that you are building the skills to build a business, and that’s exactly what you need.

Also, funny things, like you have to have a weekly meeting.

I made sure there was a hot meal because what do students want more than a hot meal during the week?

So I would cook for them.

Not even buy in.

I would cook.

I would make sure there was a hot meal when we did the meeting.

I would call them and be like, listen, is everything okay?

Is there anything I could do better?

I was obsessed with feedback.

That was pivotal.

Honestly, people interview me now and they’re like, what was such a building experience?

I always talk about being president of that society because it was the making of me.

That is such great advice, though, to anyone who’s currently at university.

I feel like there’s a lot of talk now about higher education and what the purpose of it is and whether you need it.

There are loads of jobs where you don’t need to be at university.

Whilst I agree with that in lots of ways, I think there are lots of people who don’t go to university and are still very employable and have loads of great skills.

But some of the things that you learn are not inside the course.

It’s everything else that builds you up into who you are.

For me, when I first went to university, it was the first time you’re really truly fending for yourself.

It’s like, oh, I don’t have my mum to do my washing or put food on my table every day.

I have to decide what to eat.

Even that extra decision.

It’s organizing your life because you’ve got lectures.

Actually, it’s not like you just get dropped off at school and get a set timetable.

You can skip lectures if you want.

I happily did that lots of times.

But obviously, you have to balance it out.

If you skip so many lectures because you want to sleep or do whatever, then you’re not necessarily going to do that well in your exams.

It’s the first time you’re brought in with all this responsibility.

It does really echo entrepreneurship because it’s like, right now I could just decide that I want to go on holiday or spend the day at the beach and not do this work.

But if I don’t do the work, I may not be earning as much money.

It’s the same thing.

You have to understand that balance.

I think that university, in that sense, really prepares you for entrepreneurship.

I definitely agree.

What I think is, first of all, I would never have gotten the internship that we spoke about without university.

It was actually mainly a program for Oxford and Cambridge kids, and the only reason I got on it was because I was president of this society.

They were like, that’s really impressive.

That was also really interesting.

I would also say, though, that once I finished, no one ever asked me about my degree.

During those university years, I led a digital campaign for a Labour candidate in Finchley and Golders Green.

Essentially, in my last year of university, that was what people spoke to me about in interviews.

No one ever said, where did you go to university and what did you study?

That was so interesting.

It’s understanding that you can make the most of this.

Actually, no one’s going to ask you about it unless you went to a really elite university or college.

No one’s talking about it.

The other question is, if you’re not going to that, how are you going to stand out?

Yeah.

Actually, you could be going to an Ivy League school or Oxford and Cambridge, which is the equivalent in the UK.

It’s nice to name-drop it, and they always go, oh, a grad or whatever, and it sounds impressive.

But again, that’s forgotten about.

I was thinking, like you said about A-levels and how you failed them.

That must have been the worst thing at the time.

But no one’s ever asking you now what you got in your A-levels.

No one cares.

The same as most people don’t even know where I went to university or what I studied.

It doesn’t matter.

Then when you find out, it’s like, oh cool, but it’s not relevant to who you are.

That’s why I don’t think it’s the be-all and end-all.

At the same time, you can still take every opportunity that it provides you.

If it does help to say that to someone or connect with someone, you totally should do that.

I think that’s the thing.

There’s always opportunity in everything.

But at the same time, it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s the only thing that you need to do.

This has been nuts to find out,

All this about your journey, which I love.

We’re going to come to the branding thing, but I also want to.. I want to touch upon the fact that you did move to Israel, and you still live there now.

I just feel like it’s a really sensitive time at the moment.

I don’t need to explain it.

The world knows what’s going on.

For someone who’s building your personal brand, like you help others build brands and you’re very much putting yourself out there all the time, you just said I’m president of the Jewish Association, I’m from Israel, and you’re putting yourself out there like that.

Given everything that’s been happening over the last year or so, what have you felt?

What have you received?

I feel like, have you had negativity against you?

How have people responded to that?

What is it like in Israel at the moment trying to run a business?

I’m actually just intrigued.

Without going into all the political stuff and what’s going on, we don’t need to discuss that.

That’s been discussed ad nauseam.

I just want to know, how does that affect you in your business?

So I would say that I am quite unique in the sense that I built up a strong network before I went to Israel.

Even though I was 23, I’d done a lot of things before I got there.

I would say that when I moved, a lot of my network was in the UK and also in America.

I had a lot of connections.

When I built my business, I knew that it would be very global.

Even now, I’ve worked with clients in eight different countries and 12 different sectors.

Where I was based, I never really felt like it was the be-all and end-all.

On a cultural level, even though I’ve now lived there since I was 23 and I’m now 31, I still feel like when you speak to someone that’s from the UK, you just hit it off because you came from the same place and you have an understanding.

You’ll say things like Nando’s and beer and just silly things, or cheers.

Things that you realize are quintessentially British.

I feel that that is still really important.

I don’t really feel that where I’m based is the be-all and end-all because the clients are very international.

That answers the question in terms of running a business outside of Israel.

For me, I could be doing it from anywhere.

In terms of how it has been running a business and living there, when everything broke out in October, it was just a shock.

I didn’t leave my house for two weeks.

I have two kids who are one and three.

No one expected it.

Yes, you live in the Middle East.

Yes, there are always different conflicts cropping up, but they’re usually short.

This already felt different.

The scale was different.

It was the most Jews killed on one day since the Holocaust.

You could feel that it was different.

There was a lot of fear.

Even on my LinkedIn feed, no one was talking about anything but this.

It had taken over all areas of life.

It was scary.

I also didn’t know how the business would continue.

Even though my clients were in different places, I just didn’t feel like I had the capability.

After about two weeks, the country had a way of resilience and returning to a norm.

That definitely happened.

People were like, right, we’ve got an economy to save and we need to get back into it.

People did get back into work.

I was actually very vocal at meetups and different events.

People would call me and I would say, listen, it’s not going to help sitting on the side feeling depressed.

Ultimately, work is something where you can still feel good about yourself.

I would advocate for that and remove the guilt because people were like, how can I work when this is going on?

It was like, well, we still have things to do.

I felt very strongly about that message.

Prior to October, I wasn’t writing on LinkedIn unless there was a win, a new client, or I was speaking somewhere.

I wasn’t writing thought leadership content.

I went to this meetup for people who were writing about Israel at the time.

There were people with crazy followings and really impressive backgrounds.

I was like, these people are doing it, why aren’t I?

That was where I actually began writing on LinkedIn consistently.

It started through that.

Then I was like, we don’t need to be talking about this anymore.

People are obviously talking about the conflict, but does it need to be on LinkedIn?

I felt ready to talk about something different.

I felt like we needed to shift the energy as a country and make sure that it’s okay to be talking about business still.

That’s really what I was focused on.

It’s crazy that it’s coming up for a year.

There are also a lot of Jewish High Holidays in that September-October period.

It really makes you feel like you’ve been living through a full year of it.

At the same time, it still feels like we haven’t moved on as a country.

People come there and they say you can feel the grief everywhere.

I feel like that’s true.

It’s a very heavy atmosphere.

Whatever is going on, you really do feel it.

Everyone is attached to it on so many different levels.

It’s a small country, so you really feel it everywhere.

I think every day there’s been something to cry about.

That is heavy.

At the same time, it’s like, okay, now what?

I’m still going to be out there.

I’m still going to be doing this.

I’m still going to be working.

I’m still going to be at events.

My kids are still here.

My husband is still here.

We still have a house to run.

We still have a life to live.

You have to do that.

I haven’t left for a year.

Going through that airport before I left and still seeing all the hostages, you’re like, how is this possible?

You see all their faces, and it’s heavy.

I think it puts into perspective what’s important.

The clients I’m working with, do I really want to do this?

Are these people I still align with?

I think it’s been a wake-up call.

Living through a conflict is something I never thought I would have to do and never thought I would be doing.

It’s crazy to think that a year in, we’re still there.

It’s really sad and really heavy.

At the same time, I feel like there’s a lot of resilience, and that’s a really important part of the story as well.

Yeah.

I think it’s so beautiful that something good has come out of it in terms of resilience.

Of course, with any bad thing that happens, hopefully resilience does come out of it.

But it’s also devastating.

Whatever people’s stance is on war and whichever side they take, there’s always going to be victims in everything.

It’s really hard.

I just feel like you hear the news here, and I had to switch off because it got too much for me.

I don’t like hearing all the negativity.

I just feel for anyone who’s going through that and is an innocent victim of it all.

I can’t imagine how difficult it is.

I was curious because I feel like there are nasty people out there who will still discriminate.

I was wondering if you’ve faced any of that as well.

People who have just been like, oh, we’re not going to work with you now.

No, I haven’t had anything on a personal level.

But I also think things like that are important because they show people’s true colors.

If that’s not my client, then that’s not my client.

I don’t need to persuade people.

I’m not going to hide where I’m from and who I am just so people will want to work with me.

I’d rather be upfront about it.

If it’s not a fit, it’s not a fit.

In order to get to your yeses, you have to know your nos.

I feel like people being able to say, okay, this isn’t someone I’m going to work with, that’s fine.

There are enough people who do want to work with me.

It’s another way of understanding who is my client and who isn’t.

I think everyone wants to do that, but there’s also fear because of money.

If we had a better economic climate, I think there would be more of that.

What I’ve heard from most of the people I work with is that they want to be more selective, but obviously they’re like, oh, I should take on this client because we need the money.

Which sucks.

I guess that’s why we need to keep putting ourselves out there.

It’s crazy to hear that you actually started to post on LinkedIn because of all this, which is kind of nuts when you think about it.

But obviously every guest that I have on just says how valuable LinkedIn is.

In fact, it’s how I’ve met pretty much all of my guests, right?

We spend time on the platform talking about business, and again, you kind of connect via values.

I feel like we connected because I was horrified by the story that you put on there.

I was like, wait, what?

That’s awful.

Let’s have a chat.

I think it’s been a great platform.

I want to touch on that because I think everyone I speak to is like, how do I build my personal brand?

LinkedIn is a very important platform, but how do I do it?

You’ve been doing it for a few months now and you’ve really grown your brand.

You even went crazy viral at some point, which you’ll talk about because I feel like it’s not always a good thing.

Can you share a bit more about how you’ve been sharing your journey?

Yeah.

I guess I would have said that I was using LinkedIn a lot, but in reality, now that I’m where I am, I would say obviously I wasn’t.

I had it since I was 18 and I really just used it to stay in touch with people and, as I said, share my wins.

When I was doing an event or speaking, I would promote it.

But I didn’t think to use it for thought leadership.

Then I guess when I had my first baby, she’s three now, I was writing about what it was like to be a working mom and running your own business and how I navigated maternity leave.

In Israel, you get three months of your average salary from the past year if you’re running your own business.

You get three months’ pay based on your yearly salary, which I think is really good.

But it also means after three months you’re left with, well, now what?

Am I going to put my kid in nursery full-time?

How am I going to do it?

Also, a lot of people have grandparents around, whereas me and my husband don’t.

All the grandparents live abroad, and all of our siblings live abroad.

So really, our community is our family, which is a little bit different as well.

Essentially, I was writing about the juggle and what I decided to do, which was actually give her a nanny two days a week.

The rest of the time she was with me.

For those two days a week, I was full-on with clients.

For the other days, I would do things while she napped.

Essentially, I wouldn’t book any face-to-face meetings.

I wrote about this and people were like, oh my gosh, I need to hear more about this.

It was unconventional.

People don’t really think outside the box when it comes to these sorts of solutions.

I needed that out-of-the-box solution.

So I started writing about that originally, but not consistently.

Just when something happened with the kids that was relevant.

People really gravitated toward it and were really invested in that subject about being a business owner, being a woman, and having young kids.

So I started writing about that more.

Even today, a core part of my audience is working moms.

That part of the conversation, creating a safe space, has become important.

I’ve organized a lot of events in Israel with a friend of mine for women who are having kids on this subject of how the hell are we meant to balance it all.

That’s one area.

Then what I really realized is that people were starting businesses.

We’re in a crazy space now where people are doing this all the time and going out on their own.

So I was like, right, I’m going to write more about what it’s like to do a proposal, how to set your pricing.

I was speaking for free to freelance communities through different things.

Sometimes it was a Slack channel I was a part of.

Sometimes it was just being asked to host a Zoom for someone, mainly in the UK and America.

From there, people would say to me, and I would talk about all these things I wish I knew when I was starting out.

How to make sure that you take a certain amount upfront.

Basic things.

How to make sure you have a great contract.

Really invest in a lawyer at this point.

What’s the point of branding?

How much should you invest in branding in the beginning?

People kept messaging me afterward saying, wow, can I have a one-on-one?

I was like, sure.

I was doing this for free.

Then I started feeling like, wow, there are so many people.

I can’t keep up with the demand.

That kind of became another avenue that I started doing in January from LinkedIn, where people were reaching out.

It wasn’t even my main offering.

The other thing I do is obviously run a branding agency.

So I started writing about how I built my own brand and also what I was doing for clients.

When we’re talking about personal branding, the way that I think about it is kind of different from the way people think about it now.

Most commonly, I feel like people today are saying personal brand is all about what you’re doing on LinkedIn.

It becomes synonymous with LinkedIn, but it’s not exactly.

It’s so much bigger than that.

It depends on the industry because a lot of people only do Instagram.

It’s not just one avenue.

I’m thinking about it completely differently.

About a year ago, people started saying to me, listen, I was previously only building company brands.

Then people started saying, listen, I’m the CEO of my company.

I’ve left the company.

I’ve exited.

I want to be a thought leader in my own right.

I was like, okay.

They said branding agencies are not taking individuals on.

I was like, really?

That’s odd.

Who doesn’t want to brand a person and not a company?

That’s really where the magic happens.

They were like, branding agencies don’t want to do it.

I was like, great, I do.

So I started offering branding for individuals as well as businesses.

Then I was thinking about it.

I was like, surely it’s the same kind of system.

We start with brand strategy, which is essentially 15 hours on who are you, what’s your offer, and what do you bring to the world.

What’s your best day looking like?

You’ve just left a meeting or workshop with your team.

What value did you add?

How did you add value?

What are they saying about you?

It’s very personal.

You can’t hide.

The second part is once you finish with the strategy, I build out your tone of voice.

Think about how much content you’re writing as a business owner.

Whether it be a newsletter, LinkedIn post, Instagram post, or website content.

You’re always having to train new people or freelancers on how to do the content.

Imagine if you had one guide that clearly says how you speak.

You’ve said your value is that you want to come across as friendly.

What does this mean in practice?

I would create a 15-page guide on how the person speaks so they could hand it over to anyone writing their content.

Then it’s visual.

Visual in terms of what all the content needs to look like.

What your logo looks like.

What your icon looks like.

What your Instagram icon will look like.

How your social media will look.

Everything.

That’s again about a 40-page guide.

Obviously included in that is a LinkedIn banner because that’s really part of the social aspect now.

But it’s also your email signature.

It’s also what a mockup of your website should look like.

I feel like that has really taken off.

Actually building personal brands.

What people do is take that package and say, listen, now I need someone to help me ghostwrite.

Or I want to write my own content, but I’m going to make sure it’s on brand.

So they take this package that I build for them, which is essentially what a company needs as well, and then hand it over to their team.

It’s people who are now going out and giving keynotes.

We work out what the consulting is going to be on, what they’re going to give lectures on.

It’s very intensive.

It’s a three-month process from A to Z.

That’s really it.

Then writing about it on LinkedIn as well.

How people should think about their brand.

Why they should think about tone of voice.

Because essentially, when we’re talking about personal branding, we’re talking about consistency.

Yes, consistency in showing up.

But we’re also talking about consistency in making sure that when I meet you offline, you’re the same person.

People think, oh, I’m just going to build something on LinkedIn and it doesn’t really matter if I’m not like that in real life.

Then someone asks you to speak at an event and suddenly there’s a huge inconsistency.

You’ve lost that credibility.

I agree.

We don’t talk about that enough.

This is something I shout about now a lot on LinkedIn because I’m so sick of the people who hire personal brand managers or get a VA to manage their LinkedIn.

They’re supposed to be building real connections.

How are you building any real connections if your VA is replying to all your comments?

It’s ridiculous.

If you’re not actually doing it.

For example, we connected because I dropped a comment on your thing, then you dropped me a DM, and then we chatted.

If that was a VA doing it, we wouldn’t have had that connection.

People build up a personality.

Then when you go somewhere, if someone comments on almost every one of your posts, you remember those conversations.

You’re building a little relationship every single time.

When I see them in person, I’m like, oh my God, how are you?

It’s like you’ve known each other for ages.

Imagine if that was someone else.

It’s so fake.

It’s ridiculous.

I don’t understand how that even makes sense as a business strategy.

When you meet them, there isn’t that connection.

People get disappointed.

Almost every person I’ve spoken to who met one of their favorite creators online says they’re so different in real life.

They don’t really have anything to them.

A lot of them are actually just really empty inside.

They don’t have anything to give because their thought leadership is not even their own thoughts.

It’s the most bizarre thing.

This might work short-term because they might land a few gigs.

Then word gets around that they’re actually not very good, and your reputation tanks already.

If you’re playing the long game, it’s a very terrible strategy.

When we speak about personal branding, people are very focused on LinkedIn.

What I find with my clients is the last thing they’re thinking about is LinkedIn.

Really, what they’re thinking about is what event should I be speaking at?

Who should I be pitching?

Where am I going to get my next gig from that’s going to make me money?

LinkedIn becomes a complementary source.

Most of the clients that come for personal branding are in that 40 to 50 age bracket.

They’re like, we’ve built our name.

We’ve done great things.

I’m going to use LinkedIn as a complementary source, but am I going to invest all my time in it?

Absolutely not.

People think personal brand means hiring someone to write their stuff and getting the word out there.

They think it’s going to bring in clients.

What they don’t realize is you have to be showing up in person.

You have to be working offline.

Booking one-on-ones.

Having meetings.

Building a network.

Realizing that LinkedIn is part of it, but LinkedIn is not the whole game.

That’s coming from someone who is very invested in the platform.

It’s just the reality of how I’ve built my own personal brand.

By speaking offline and showing up at events.

I totally resonate because, as I said, I spend a lot of time on LinkedIn too.

But I’m obviously trying to spend less time on it.

My whole thing about my entrepreneur members club is in-person events.

That’s what I’m invested in.

I had so many people dropping into my DMs saying, would you like more leads on LinkedIn?

I was like, I think I do, okay, thank you.

Then they were like, spend more time on LinkedIn.

I was like, no.

I’m going to spend more time in person building real connections.

What I’ve noticed is that the personal branding space is largely people in their twenties.

They’re driving it.

They actually don’t do real connections in real life.

They do a few fancy dinners, but they’re not actually building real business connections.

They’re spending all their time on social media.

They’re building up this brand on social media.

That’s what they’re pushing as the agenda.

Like you said, the 40 to 50-year-olds are already saying, I don’t have time for that.

They’ve already got established businesses.

They’re already meeting people.

Taking people out for dinners.

Going to events.

Doing business in person.

Even the cliché thing of doing business on the golf course.

The reason that works so well is because you’re spending time in person doing something you both enjoy.

Spending hours talking to each other.

Having something to compete with.

You could be doing the same thing anywhere.

The point is, it’s not the same as spending all that time on LinkedIn.

You’re never going to have that close a connection.

People are missing this.

People are spending all their time on Instagram, TikTok, and LinkedIn and not realizing that the magic belongs offline.

That’s what I’m focusing on with N0BS.

Everyone says, I don’t have time to come to London.

Unfortunately, we’re going to move events eventually, but I’m not just going to do webinars.

I don’t think they make the same connection.

I am going to do masterclasses inside the brand’s HQ because I think that’s quite special.

I think no one else is doing it.

I intend to be a little bit different.

For those who love it, they’ll love it.

For those who don’t, that’s fine.

It’s not for you.

I also think now because there are so far fewer things happening offline, they’ve become sacred.

People are much more invested.

They’re more likely to pay a higher price because there’s something unique about it.

We’ve reached this point where things feel online all the time.

Then when there’s something offline, you’re like, wow, okay, I’m going to make the effort.

I’m going to pay.

I think that’s really important.

It’s going to be high-level because there are fewer opportunities like that.

I think that makes a lot more sense.

I really want to ask you, though,

about your viral post because it went really viral. It was 2.5 million-plus views or whatever, and it was just wild.

Again, you’re literally doing brands for other people.

This is your job.

I think so many people try to create a viral post.

I’m guessing you didn’t write that thinking, this is going to go viral.

You were just like, I’m pissed off, the world needs to know about this stuff.

Let’s do it.

That’s what I think works as well because it’s authentic.

It was really raw, and you could feel the emotion in it.

I want to talk about this because people try to go viral.

I personally think it’s a bad thing to go viral a lot of the time because you attract the wrong people.

That one maybe was actually okay.

I’d love to hear your experience.

First of all, tell us what happened, the background, why you felt the need to write a post about it, why you think it went viral, and what’s been happening since because it’s been a wild ride.

I would say that in the past nine months I’ve focused on posting four to five times a week.

I’m not someone who plans ahead very much.

I listen to a ton of content.

There are always things on my mind.

I’m at events.

I’m thinking about things.

I’m meeting people.

I think that really spurs content.

People ask me that all the time.

I think that’s the first thing to say.

Prior to this, I would say that content was always doing well.

My following was growing.

Things were in a really good place.

Everything was on brand.

When you went to the LinkedIn profile, it was very clear what you were meant to do.

You were meant to either book a one-on-one if you’re a freelancer, or inquire about branding if you’re a company or individual looking for a personal brand or business brand.

I think we don’t speak enough about those core things that you have to do before you start posting, which is profile optimization.

Prior to this, I had written one post about how I manage my week as a working mom of two young kids and what my non-negotiables are.

It got picked up by LinkedIn, the company, and they commented saying, this is great, really insightful.

That went to about 50,000 impressions.

I was like, great.

It was relevant, it was on brand, and more working parents were coming my way.

Back around April, I booked a consultation with a woman.

She sits at the intersection between branding, business, and personal branding especially.

I wanted some advice about a specific question.

She was quite expensive.

I’d never really booked this sort of thing before, but I’d read her book.

I thought she was very credible, had a very big following, and the reviews were really positive.

I thought, fine.

It’s a short question.

I’m going to pay $250 for 15 minutes.

That’s not quite expensive.

That’s ludicrously expensive.

That’s a grand an hour, right?

I’d also emailed this person before and never got a response, which made me think that if I wanted an answer, I’d need to pay for it.

I was fine with that.

I’m pretty senior.

Happy to do it.

I paid the money.

Initially, I booked childcare because my kids are with me.

My husband wasn’t home.

He’s a lawyer, so he’s super busy as well.

The babysitter came, and about five minutes before the consultation I got a notification that it had been cancelled.

I was like, okay, a little disappointing.

I could see there was an option to reschedule.

No problem.

I rescheduled it for a few hours later.

The babysitter could still help out.

No problem.

That was kind of the end of it.

I got on the call a few hours later.

I was lucky there was still a slot available that day.

We started the call, and I assumed the person would apologize for rescheduling five minutes before.

Nothing.

Just, hi Avital, how can I help you today?

I was like, fine.

I outlined the question I had, and they really just went on for 10 minutes talking about themselves.

I was looking at the clock thinking, is this for real?

The consultation is practically done.

I haven’t really been able to say anything except my original question, which they’re not even answering.

A popup appeared on the platform called Intro where the consultation was taking place.

It said, do you want to pay another $150 for 15 minutes?

I wrote, no, hell no.

The person obviously gets notified that I’m not continuing the consultation.

Then they said, I see we’ve got a few minutes left.

Can I look at your website?

I was like, actually, I gave you my website before.

You asked for my website, who I was, and a bio before I signed up.

Surely you’ve read it.

They hadn’t.

They looked at the About Me page and said, well, I’m not seeing enough magic.

You could make yourself seem more impactful.

What’s your superpower?

I was like, decent thing to say, but that’s not my question.

Also, that’s very generic.

Anyone could have told me that.

Maybe it needs to focus more on my superpower, but that’s not why I came to you.

They quickly wrapped up the call because there was a timer counting down.

They essentially said, thanks so much for your time, please leave me a review.

That was the end of it.

I was left feeling really deflated.

I was like, what just happened?

This was someone I looked up to in the industry.

There aren’t many people I really rate, but I thought this person was impressive.

I couldn’t really work out what happened.

I messaged a friend and told her what had happened.

She was like, I’ve stopped doing those things because most people can talk the talk but can’t walk the walk.

I thought that was interesting.

It sat in my mind for a few more months.

I never did anything with it.

I didn’t leave a review.

I didn’t write to them.

I didn’t write to the platform.

I was just disappointed.

That was as far as it went.

Then around June or July, something made me write about it.

I thought, I write on this platform enough.

I know it needs a strong hook.

So I started with, I paid $250 for a 15-minute consultation, which obviously gets people’s attention.

I wrote it as a text-only post, which is everything they say not to do.

There was no image, nobody tagged, and no mention of the person or platform.

I ended it with a strong line saying that it did teach me one thing, which was how to lead my own consultations.

It went viral.

It’s now had about 2.7 million impressions.

Honestly, the adrenaline from that post was like having another child.

It didn’t stop.

I couldn’t sleep.

Comment after comment after comment.

I felt it was polite to respond to people.

My inbox was flooding with DMs.

Everything leveled up.

I was like, this is insane.

In terms of why it got so much traction, I think it appealed to quite a few audiences.

On one hand, it appealed to consultants who wanted to explain how they do things differently.

A lot of comments were consultants saying, I would never do this.

Here’s how I do it.

Here’s why.

They jumped in to promote themselves.

That’s what LinkedIn is all about technically.

Then it resonated with people who had gone through something similar.

We’ve all paid for something and been disappointed.

Whether meeting someone in person or paying them.

For me, it was a relatively small amount compared to stories people shared.

Some people had paid thousands and thousands for courses and access to people and were disappointed.

Those were the two groups who really resonated with the post.

The most surprising thing was how many people reached out, like yourself, saying, I don’t even know what your question is, but I’d love to help.

I had about 40 of those.

Every single person followed through.

When I replied and suggested a time to chat, everyone responded.

They weren’t just commenting publicly.

They genuinely wanted to help.

I was really impressed.

I spent the next two weeks having about five meetings a day.

Some people wanted personal branding services.

Others genuinely gave great advice.

It really grew my network.

I gained around 2,000 new followers.

I had people inquiring about one-on-one consultations.

I had someone from Dubai and someone from Forbes 30 Under 30 inquire about rebranding.

It brought a lot of value.

I found it very meaningful.

I felt like I had written something that reflected both the business and how I do things.

Past clients commented about how I had worked with them and how I do things differently.

That was really nice to see.

By the end of the week, I felt like this viral post had genuinely taken the business to the next level.

I love that because you’ve created a viral post that’s actually relevant to your brand.

People try to go viral by copying trends.

What they don’t realize is that your post was about branding, consultations, and consultants.

Everyone who followed you was relevant to your business.

That’s why it’s so important to stay true to who you are and your brand.

If you try to do whatever trend is happening at the moment, you’re going to attract people who are completely irrelevant to your business.

Then your content gets shown to people who don’t care about what you actually do.

Even on my Instagram, I have that problem.

I used to be a professional chess player.

A lot of my followers know me from chess and want chess content.

Now I’m trying to build content around what I’m doing today, and nobody cares.

The engagement drops.

It’s hard because I do so many things.

That’s not even me trying to go viral.

That’s just mixed messaging.

I think people get confused.

I’m glad to see someone go viral talking about what they normally talk about.

You can go viral talking about something that’s your personal opinion and a genuine experience.

You don’t have to manufacture some huge epiphany.

It was just a personal experience.

Everyone has personal experiences.

Everyone has opinions.

If we write more of that, that’s actually unique content.

You never know what will happen because it resonates.

My inbox was also filled with ghostwriters saying, how did you do this?

Really?

Yeah.

Also saying, you’re never going to be able to monetize this.

I was like, watch me.

That was very interesting.

There were a lot of DMs like that.

When I thought about writing a follow-up post, I was going to start it with, apparently you can’t monetize a viral post.

But I thought I’d find a better line.

It was a lot of jealousy.

I also thought carefully about what to do next.

The post kept growing for another week.

At the same time, I had a friend going through a divorce.

She has five kids and needed help finding a job.

I’m well connected and often connect people.

I managed to get her three job opportunities in a market where people are being fired all the time.

She’s really impressive in the marketing space.

I wrote about that and said that while people might think the highlight of my week was getting millions of impressions, the real highlight was helping this woman get opportunities so she could support herself.

I wrote that the magic actually happens offline.

People really resonated with that.

That’s the message I wanted to send.

The next thing I wrote about was the power of taking a 25-hour break for the Jewish Sabbath and how that replenishes us.

I thought, I’ve got this platform and I’m going to use it to focus on the messages I think are important.

The final thing I wrote on the whole subject was about what happened afterward.

I explained that people genuinely reached out and offered help.

I also said that it didn’t happen overnight.

The reason the post was successful was because I’d spent six years building a business and a brand people connect with.

You mentioned the followers.

I assumed people would unfollow after two months.

Instead, the following kept growing.

People connected to the content for a reason.

It wasn’t irrelevant.

That has been really interesting to see.

It wasn’t a one-hit wonder.

I don’t think about recreating that buzz every time I write content.

First of all, it was exhausting.

It was a really intense week.

A thousand comments.

Nearly 400 DMs.

Forty consultations.

I don’t have someone doing that for me.

It was all me.

I realized that this isn’t how I want to live my life.

Constantly responding to every single person.

I understand why creators need teams.

I understand why they use bots.

It’s simply not possible to manage at that scale.

It raises the question of what you really want.

Do I really need 150,000 followers to feel successful?

You don’t.

It’s not necessary.

I’d rather have fewer followers but better-quality followers.

A lot of bots are used to manipulate numbers and make people look more popular.

I’d rather have 1,000 engaged followers.

That would be much better for me.

I don’t think we talk about that enough.

I don’t think we talk about it enough either.

There’s a lot of stuff online right now that’s unscrupulous.

But I don’t want to talk about that today.

I want to talk about your advice because you run HiPitched and…

You know, like you just said earlier, what you do for clients.

You do all that branding stuff, and it’s so important.

I’d love to get some actual advice because you were talking about how personal branding is not just your LinkedIn.

It’s not just that.

Like I said, it’s all about building your reputation offline.

Like you said, the people who are already more established want to do speaking gigs.

Inevitably, that’s what you’re trying to do.

You’re not speaking online just to gain more followers because what does that do?

I think people are missing the point.

People are talking about vanity metrics at the moment, and it’s nothing to do with that.

Inevitably, what you want is more money.

You want more money to get more freedom so that you actually work less, not to be posting all the time on LinkedIn.

I’d love to hear from your perspective, with the clients you’ve worked with and just generally, some advice for people out there.

People are trying to build up their personal brand, and I think people are clouding LinkedIn with posts about how to conquer the algorithm and how to get impressions.

At the end of the day, you want paid work.

You want paid speaking gigs.

You want that sort of stuff.

What would be your advice to people out there who are trying to build their brand on LinkedIn?

What should they do to get more traction?

Okay.

I think one of the things that I did that was really helpful was talking to 18-year-olds right before their first year of college or university.

I had a lot of exposure to groups like that.

I would talk about the power of networking, how to land your first internship, and different things like that.

People say now that you need to be known for one thing.

Even now, I realize I have three audiences, and I’m fine with that.

We spoke about the moms.

We spoke about freelancers who want to understand the nuts and bolts of business.

Then we have people looking for branding and personal branding tips.

That’s quite rare because people say you’ve got to be known for one thing.

For me, it’s better to be known for those three things and have those three audiences.

The younger audience was really interesting because 18-year-olds would come in large groups, and I would essentially be speaking to them, mostly in person.

That’s a really difficult age because they have access to their phones all the time.

They’re not always that bothered about manners.

But they would say, this is brilliant.

This is exactly what we needed.

This is practical.

This is how to master networking.

If we’re not going to meet people in person, how do we do it on Zoom?

How do we make the most out of that meeting?

I would just be really vulnerable about all the failures, what I did, how I got to where I did, and what I was doing when I was their age.

Once I realized they were interested and really wanted to hear that story, it built my confidence.

I thought, if I can get 18-year-olds, who mostly just want to be on their phones, interested, then how much more can I do with an older client base?

I would say the biggest thing when you’re thinking about building a personal brand is to think about audiences.

Maybe it’s your old high school.

Maybe it’s contacting your old university and asking if you can give a lecture.

Those groups are really interested to learn.

It’s also kind of an easy win because you want to build yourself up.

The more you do something, the better you become.

Start thinking about speaking and giving talks, even if you’re not being paid for it.

Just doing it for audiences is an amazing way to start building a personal brand, telling your story over and over again, and getting it really sharp.

The second thing is something we’ve already spoken about.

It’s investing in those actual one-on-ones offline.

At the time when I was growing my brand, I would say, I want to meet with five new people every single week.

I made sure it happened.

People underestimate that.

Booking five coffees a week, even if it’s online, even if it’s on Zoom, just making the time to get to know people.

Those are the two things.

When you know someone, you’re more likely to like their post.

You’re more likely to engage with their content.

You’re more likely to recommend them or their services because you know the person behind the profile.

If I was going to recommend two things outside of LinkedIn, I would say book the coffees and make sure you’re meeting people.

And do those speaking gigs, even if they’re free, for audiences you can access.

I love that because I do both of those things.

I recommend it.

I teach at university, and university pay is awful, by the way.

Even if you do get paid, it’s really awful.

It sounds very impressive to be a lecturer, but it’s not lucrative.

I’ve been teaching for ages.

I think giving back is one of the best feelings.

Like you said, seeing those students do really well.

Some of them drop into my inbox afterward and say, I don’t know if you remember me, but I was a student in your course and I’ve just landed my first job.

I followed your advice.

Thank you so much.

I’m like, oh my God, this is amazing.

It’s so nice.

I did a podcast today on public speaking.

I was saying that I’m very torn between unpaid versus paid speaking gigs.

I believe that anyone with a reputation should get paid.

I think there’s so much unpaid speaking out there at the moment because people take speakers for granted.

But I absolutely think that if you’re trying to build up your brand, you should do some speaking for free.

I went one year and did 42 speaking gigs and got paid zero.

Forty-two.

That’s disgusting.

I already had a reputation, but everyone was just doing it for free.

At the same time, I got to speak in Cannes.

I spoke at the Excel.

I spoke at The Shard.

I spoke at all these fancy places, including the Royal Albert Hall.

I got to stand up in all these places.

Each time I did it, it built my confidence.

It’s great for your personal brand.

People post all this stuff on social media, and it makes them look really fancy and like they’re making loads of money.

I wasn’t getting paid for any of it, which is ridiculous.

I probably should have been.

But there’s a turning point that’s important to understand.

There comes a point where you need to start charging.

I think people find that hard to do.

Once I got there, I found it much more fulfilling to choose opportunities I wanted to do for free.

I was like, well, these other things are paying me.

Now if there’s an organization I really want to speak for and they can’t afford me, I feel much better about doing it because it’s one event instead of twelve.

Same as me now.

I’ve basically declared that I won’t do speaking gigs unless I’m paid, apart from the ones I really believe in.

I do ones where I’m giving back, usually to youth, whether they’re starting their journey, kids, nonprofits, or really good causes.

Lots of people ask me to speak for free, and I still will.

I think it definitely helps not just your personal brand but also builds confidence.

It’s a really big thing to do.

For sure.

I agree with that.

I also think the interesting thing is that when you’re talking to a group, afterward they all flock to you and say, wow, that was so inspiring.

We really connected with the story.

Then they ask for your details and say, would I be able to go for coffee with you?

I always say yes.

What I find so interesting is that there’s usually only one or two people who actually follow up and go for the coffee.

That’s where the magic happens.

People can ask, but it’s really about who takes the next step.

I always make time for that coffee.

Obviously, I never charge for it.

It’s such a highlight being able to say, I spoke to a group, someone reached out, and said they really connected with it.

Normally it’s a woman saying, I want to take this further.

Can we go for coffee?

That’s really important to me.

I don’t think it’s bad to do things for free.

I just think when you do too much of it, you get resentful.

That’s what happened to me.

Forty-two in one year is too much.

Very much.

That’s why I slowed it down.

Now I just do a handful, and it’s amazing.

That coffee thing, like you said right at the beginning of the episode, is so important.

Following up is one of the key indicators of success.

People don’t do it.

You can book five coffees a week or ten a week, but if you don’t follow up afterward, you’re not really progressing the relationship.

That’s a major takeaway.

Yes, do your networking, but follow up on the good ones.

Thank you so much for coming in today.

It’s been amazing having you.

Your insights have been amazing.

Thank you for having me.

I have loved the opportunity.

I will make sure I put all your contact details in the show notes.

Where’s the best place to find you?

LinkedIn.

LinkedIn.

LinkedIn.

All right.

I’ll make sure to do that.

I’m sure people will have loads of questions about this.

It’s been a really interesting journey.

Thank you.

Looking forward to hearing from you.

Yay.

[Music]