Sabrina Chevannes: Hi everyone, and welcome to this week’s episode of No Bullshit Talks.

I’m pleased to be joined here today.

By Tatiana Keay who is a registered dietitian, and an author of a couple of books, right?

So you’ve got new book, Hungry Tree I believe and you’ve got a food writing journal as well. So it’s very exciting to have you on the show

Tatiana Keay: Thanks Sabrina.

I’m so excited to be here.

It’s going to be a fun conversation.

Sabrina Chevannes: I know.

I’m so excited.

It’s kind of delve into the world of dieting and everything like that because you’re actually a legit dietitian.

You’re registered.

You’re qualified, you know, you know what you’re talking about.

There’s a big difference, but I feel like your industry is full of supposed experts and, you know, you just scroll through Instagram and I swear, everyone’s got dieting tips.

Like, you’ll get Facebook ads, and sending you to all these pages with like, you know, diet, supplements, and all these regimes are going to do.

Just sign up now for only thirty nine, nine nine.

Like, you know, you never see your money again or whatever.

But I mean, what do you think about this the industry at the moment.

Tatiana Keay: You know, everyone thinks they’re an expert at this point just like you said and it’s really not their fault.

We just live in an information age right where we have knowledge at the tips of our fingers and so it’s really not their fault that they think that they’re the expert.

It’s just that we’ve never had this access to information in human history.

And so the thing, I don’t know if you’ve heard of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

Sabrina Chevannes: Yeah, I have yes.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

Tatiana Keay: So it’s this cognitive bias that when you think you know something your confidence is like through the roof, even when you know a little bit versus like the more you actually learn you realize you don’t know anything.

And so that’s the case with nutrition is these influencers and bloggers, they know a little bit.

And so they are overly confident about what they do know, however, dietitians and researchers.

We tend to know a little bit more so we actually feel like we don’t know crap.

We feel like we don’t know anything and so our confidence is actually much lower than these people who just know a little bit.

And so it’s interesting as the Dunning-Kruger effect as time passes and you learn more, you actually start to gain a different type of confidence.

It’s not hollow confidence.

It’s actually firm confidence.

And so as wisdom increases so does your confidence.

Whereas yes, these influencers are just at the very start of the Dunning-Kruger effect and they’re just overly confident and unfortunately, it’s just hollow, it’s empty and like again, they don’t mean bad.

Like they do mean well, but that’s just how life and knowledge works.

It’s like the more you know, the more you realize you don’t know shit.

Sabrina Chevannes: Yeah, and I feel like that was I remember this when I went I went to medical school and we call it like the medical student effect, right?

It was like, as soon as you start to learn a couple of things where like, oh my God, we’re basically doctors now like, you know, and people would ask us all these questions about medicine and we would, we would like, yeah, we know this.

We totally know this and actually all it made us do was be super paranoid about everything.

Seems like you had a slight chest problem.

You let, oh my God, I’m self-diagnosing myself.

I have this and I’m dying.

Like, you know, all this stuff it was really stupid, but obviously, in the grand scheme of things we didn’t know anything at all.

But the difference is my issue with these people is that like you said, a lot of them obviously don’t mean any harm, a lot of them are just, you know, they maybe have learned something and they actually want to inspire other people and they’re trying to teach people.

That’s absolutely fine.

I get it.

It’s good that they want to give back, but there’s also a lot of people who know they don’t know anything who are just there to rip people off.

And you know, I’ve spoken to some people who have been asking to be on the podcast and their whole thing is, oh I read this book and now I teach this book and I was like, I read it a year ago and now I’m an expert in this method and I’m like, you’re not an expert in this method.

I also read that book blah blah not trying to take money off people running courses for it.

It’s like it was a good book don’t get me wrong and I’m going to recommend stuff, but I think there’s a difference and so I feel like in your industry there’s a lot of people who say they’re expert and genuinely you know go out there knowing they probably don’t know that much but they think oh actually I’ve got a good body I look quite nice I’m sure a lot of people would just believe what I have to say.

I am now a fitness and dietitian expert and you know it’s dangerous for other people who are listening to them.

That’s my worry.

It’s like they can do whatever they want.

But you as a professional, do you not get worried that you know say someone has genuine nutritional problems and they come to those people and they’re getting the wrong advice?

Sabrina Chevannes: How bad is that?

Tatiana Keay:
It is worrisome.

And many of my patients have fallen prey to the influencers, to the misinformation online, especially in the gut health world in digestive health.

Everyone thinks they know the right diet, right?

And so yes, people take the advice of the non-experts and they actually do more harm to their body.

So of course it is worrisome.

And it’s hard to get around this right now.

Because as humans, we look to the person with the perfect body, we look to the loudest person in the room.

And we take their advice versus the person who actually knows the information is not going to be self-proclaiming it.

They’re usually the one that’s humble in the background, right?

So we just have to be careful and that’s up to the individual to question the people who are the loudest and we can’t really get past that.

Unfortunately, we just have to question it ourselves.

Sabrina Chevannes: How does someone understand the difference?

Who’s not an expert in the world right to say, if I’m just scrolling through and I want some inspiration for someone to help me lose weight.

But, you know, maybe I also have some medical issues as well.

Because I think that’s another thing.

It’s like, it’s one thing for the average healthy-ish, from a medical perspective, person to lose a bit of weight, but say, if you have underlying medical issues that stop you eating something, stop you exercising or whatever.

Like you said, it could be more detrimental to your health listening to these so-called experts.

How does the average person be able to distinguish who’s legit?

And who’s not?

Tatiana Keay: That is difficult.

I think, honestly, there’s no research to support this.

I think it all comes back to being intuitive with your truth, because yeah, that person might give good advice for one person.

It might work and help one person but not another.

So for example, the ketogenic diet.

Let’s just use that as an example.

For a lot of people it works.

It reverses their diabetes, it helps their weight loss or hormones get balanced.

So it’s not a bad diet in a sense, right?

There’s a lot of promoters of the ketogenic diet, but for some person it might not be helpful for them.

It actually could be doing more harm based on their genetics.

So I think we need to come back to intuitive truth.

So that person who does try the ketogenic diet or takes the advice of whatever expert they’re listening to and they don’t feel good, then they need to start asking themselves, okay, is this the diet for me?

We need to take an individualized approach.

And so sure we can, I don’t recommend buying anything off of anybody, but to take someone’s advice and try it for yourself.

And if it doesn’t feel good, if it doesn’t feel right or intuitively, just don’t think it’s working for you, then move on, do something else.

What I obviously would recommend is find a dietitian who’s actually going to support you, find a health care team that is going to take you as a whole person and treat you that way versus just trying to figure it out on your own.

Which again, we live in the information age and we can Google a symptom and have all the possible causes as to why, you know, why am I getting all these headaches or why am I getting bloating?

But it’s not until we actually have someone on our team to create an individualized approach that we can experience real healing, real results.

Sabrina Chevannes: I guess, I think that a lot of people probably think they can’t afford that personal approach.

So in the UK we’re very lucky, we have the NHS, we have like, you know, doctors who can support us, we have free medical care, which is amazing, but there’s still not going to be dedicated to you, right?

They’re not going to, you know, they’ve got millions of other people that they need to look after.

So they’re not going to be there like if you need to just quickly call them or you want to just quickly check something.

Where are they?

There are services like what you do is really personalized for your clients and stuff like that.

And I feel like, you know, not everyone’s going to be able to afford that.

So I guess they’re going to see the person who’s just advertising on Instagram or whatever.

They could seem affordable and cheap and they’re going to be like, okay, let’s go with them and it’s, I mean, there must be some who are okay, but you’re saying don’t buy anything.

But again, there’s some probably some good products out there.

How would you know, which ones are real and which ones are not.

It must be just a minefield.

Tatiana Keay: It is a minefield, and I think it’s going to take us years, if not decades, to change the culture and to change the healthcare system.

I mean, yeah, like in the U.S. our healthcare system is really messed up, you know, and eventually we will be able to take the personalized approach and be able to spend an hour with a patient and not be cost an arm and a leg, you know.

So I think we’re moving towards that way, especially because so many patients want that. They realize the 15-minute consult with the doctor is not enough, right?

Or sometimes 30 seconds. The doctor goes in and out.

So in the meantime, we have to do our best to be intuitive and practice our own wisdom, cultivate our own wisdom about our bodies, right?

Not looking to the influencer, not looking to the right or to our left, but to just reflect within and ask ourselves what has felt good in the past.

Oh, sleeping has felt good in the past. Maybe I should focus on that.

Oh, you know, when I drink an extra bottle of water I feel good, you know, versus just trying all these other crazy sets of restriction, you know, avoiding gluten, avoiding dairy, you know, doing all the things.

Why don’t we just start simple with what has already worked for you in the past?

Sabrina Chevannes: Yeah.

You said every single person’s body and makeup is totally different.

So what works for you may be the opposite for me, might be really bad and I’ve had that totally in the past and that’s why there shouldn’t be a one-size diet fits all kind of thing.

Like so it’s, it’s, that’s why I think that personalization is the only way to go.

But you specialize in gut health, right?

So why gut health? Where did that come from?

Tatiana Keay: Yeah. So the digestive system has always been very interesting to me.

Obviously, we eat food, it goes through our digestive system.

So it would only be natural for me to be interested in that sense. I am interested in food.

So my first year practicing as a dietitian, I started realizing, hey, I really like gut health and for some reason everything comes back to that health, right?

So in research, we’re finding like anxiety is linked to your gut health, cardiovascular diseases linked to your gut health, diabetes is linked to your gut health, and so on.

So all of these diseases are somehow coming back to the gut.

So I thought, why not investigate this more and specialize in this area. And so that’s when I ended up getting a job with a digestive clinic.

I work with four diet gastroenterologist.

And so ever since then, I’ve just loved it so much.

And the best part about it is, we don’t know everything yet.

So there’s a lot of mystery.

There’s still so much to learn.

And again, that’s where that Dunning-Kruger effect comes in because yeah, maybe going in I was like, oh I know a lot.

But after like the first year or two I thought I don’t know much.

Like crazy, there’s still so much to learn.

But over time I’ve learned, you know, one condition after another.

And we have to take that individualized approach.

Sabrina Chevannes: It’s so funny how you can be, you know, like you said, but with you you do a little better than you think, you know everything.

And I feel like the smartest people or the most successful people are always the ones like I could learn something from this and they feel like they can actually learn from anyone.

Like and it’s just, I think that’s when you realize that actually you’ve got an open mind and you could pick up so many things and I think you can grow much quicker that way, for sure.

Tatiana Keay: Absolutely.

Yeah, absolutely.

And you say yes, I think that those that think they know everything are not open-minded to new ideas.

Like that’s a red flag.

If someone is like solid about their idea and will not change like that’s when you should start questioning them versus someone that says, hey, you know, there’s wiggle room here.

Some people do really well on a high protein diet. Other people do better on a vegetarian or vegan diet.

So the ones that are claiming like this is the only way those are the ones that little red flag should go in your mind.

Sabrina Chevannes: I always think this.

I think like if you think about the world view and so many people like the Atkins diet was a thing. I don’t know, is it still a thing? I don’t know, but

Tatiana Keay: obviously not really.

Sabrina Chevannes: no.

Low carb has always been a thing that people say right and they say oh you know you shouldn’t touch carbs and those people don’t touch any pasta, any rice or anything like that.

And I think like okay so in Asia rice is like a massive staple part of everyone’s diet and Asians are generally very slim, can’t overgeneralize but people are generally in great condition and they’re usually healthy and fit.

Same as in like Italy for example, Italians are usually in great shape like the Mediterranean diet is amazing but they eat pasta all day long.

So I’m sorry but carbs cannot just be like a toxic thing because it just doesn’t make sense otherwise all the people in Asia would be fat, all the people in Italy but they’re not.

Tatiana Keay: so cracks and that’s why.

Again, we need to come back to our cultural or individualized approach of where your genes come from.

If you come from Asia, rice is probably a staple in your cultural diet. So why would you eliminate it?

If you’re from Western Europe, why would you eliminate bread and pasta that are staples?

So here in the U.S. of course you’ve got lots of processed carbohydrates and like that’s a whole other conversation.

But yes, we need to go back to individualized approach.

And what did your ancestors eat?

What did your people eat? You know, try to replicate that because that’s most likely what your DNA is okay with.

Sabrina Chevannes: Yeah.

Well I love that, because I’m half Chinese and half Jamaican, so like rice and plantains and all that stuff is a big part of my culture.

So I love that. Would love to talk more about gut health.

So I feel like it’s become quite a topical thing, especially around lactose intolerance.

I feel like more and more people are finding this out.

I think there’s more services out there that do all these kind of blood testing and you know they’re kind of offering this sort of approach to find out what you’re allergic to or intolerant to.

And I think lactose intolerance is really quite high compared to what it used to be or people are actually more aware of it.

Maybe it was suffering before and just not realizing it.

And then obviously people are just sort of getting bad stomach symptoms and they don’t realize what it is.

Like how much do you see this in what you do?

Is that a big thing and what are usually the complaints that people come in with and how have you helped them?

Tatiana Keay: Yeah, so lactose intolerance has always been a thing. You know, about 65 percent of the population is lactose intolerant.

That’s true from childhood, which a lot of people don’t realize, and it’s because the human body naturally wasn’t going to consume cow’s milk, right?

But most people, as long as they’re consuming cow’s milk regularly, their body will still produce the enzymes.

It’s when we go dairy-free for too long that our bodies can become intolerant when they see it again.

So yeah, lactose intolerance, especially in Asian cultures, it’s very high. I think about 85 percent of the Asian population.

So yeah, and again, it’s not like we need to be against all dairy. We just have to be mindful. Okay, we need to find some alternative for you.

And yeah, going to other intolerances and digestive issues with certain foods, most of those tests that are available are unfortunately not accurate.

They kind of, you can think of them as like a horoscope.

Right? Like they’ll tell you things and you’ll be like, oh yeah, I eat that food and I get bloated, right? Or like when you read your horoscope, you’re like.

Sabrina Chevannes: Totally. It really relates to you.

You can do that with so many things though. It’s true. You can put all, oh my God, that is so me.

Tatiana Keay: Exactly.

And so with food sensitivity testing, there are a couple of legit ones.

ALCAT is one, LEAP MRT. Both of these are really good food sensitivity tests to see if your body is reacting in an immune response way.

Whereas other allergy and food sensitivity testing, we just have to take that with a grain of salt.

But part of the reason why so many people are having digestive issues right now, my theory is the way that we’re processing our food, right?

So back in the day, let’s use dairy as an example. Cows ate grass, they lived a nice life in the sunshine, they roamed the fields for their whole life until it was time to slaughter them or whatever.

But nowadays, we are raising cows and other animal products in one facility.

They don’t move their whole life. They’re fed grains. They’re fed antibiotics. They are fattened up so big that their legs basically break.

And if we take that milk from a factory-produced cow versus a cow that lived a nice healthy life in the grass and in the sunshine, don’t you think the milk quality would be different between the two cows?

So we have to come back to that. And with every food at this point, I mean grains, even our fruits and veggies have less nutrients now than they did 100 years ago.

So I think it’s more so the way that we’re processing our food is one of the reasons why people are having digestive issues, along with one other thing, which we will talk into in a moment here.

And stress is the other huge trigger and like our mental health.

Sabrina Chevannes: Let me talk about what you just said about the different way the maize and everything like that.

So to you, is there a big difference between organic food and non-organic food?

And is it totally worth the price? Because I know that lots of people think different things about this, and organic has always been kind of the upper-class food.

It’s like, oh I went organic, it has to be organic. But actually there’s not really much difference in it.

But to you, do you think there’s a big difference between organic food?

Tatiana Keay: So unfortunately, the organic label has been painted.

So farmers can say the food is organic or like the cow is organic or the milk is organic, even if the cow only went outside for 15 minutes of its whole life.

So the organic label has been tainted unfortunately.

However, there is some labeling more specifically with our animal products and our fruits and veggies.

Like we can get away with getting non-organic for the most part, especially if we can.

When it comes to animal products, that’s where yes, we need to look for pasture-raised, cage-free, grass-fed.

And I don’t know if it’s the same labeling over there.

Sabrina Chevannes: Yeah, it’s mostly the same, something like free-range and all that kind of stuff with the chickens and stuff like that.

Tatiana Keay: Exactly.

So that is definitely what I would look at versus organic and non-organic at this point in time, just because the organic label has been tainted.

But yes, to answer your question, it does matter and it is an investment.

And I know it’s expensive, and that’s why overall we should still be focusing on plants as a big portion of our diet versus more expensive animal products.

Sabrina Chevannes: That is exactly what my next question was going to be.

So obviously so much of the internet is pro-vegan and that’s what vegans have taken over and they shout the loudest.

And it’s all like, and every time I’ve ever posted a picture of like a burger or steak, I have all these vegans like “animal killer” blah blah.

But I bet if they just start abusing me on Instagram and I’m just like, oh my God, like I also adore animals and I can’t hate animals. Like I adore animals, I absolutely love animals, but I eat meat.

I always have done. I grew up on it and I just don’t see myself changing.

I tried a vegan diet, vegetarian diet even and I now do one better day a week just because I wanted to do a challenge this year and actually it’s been great and there’s some really nice veggie meals I’ve been having but I miss meat in my diet and I think my body is, I think I need it because when I used to do like I did a veggie week before I got really sick.

So I think my body requires meat. My whole family are the same.

So I’d like to hear from a dietician’s point of view now.

Yeah, is being vegan actually better for you or is it just a trendy thing?

Tatiana Keay: So there’s a couple answers here.

But I want to go back to you didn’t feel good after doing it for a week.

That is your body intuition. That is your body communicating and saying, “Hey Sabrina, we don’t do well on this. We do not feel good.”

Right?

So to answer your question, it depends on the person.

If someone thrives on a vegan diet, wonderful. Are there nutritional deficiencies in the vegan diet? Yes.

And we, I mean, you need a supplement unless you’re being absolutely perfect, which takes too much effort for the average person.

But for the most part, vegans have one thing right, which is eating lots of plants. And overall, we do want to minimize animal products.

You know, too much protein, especially if we’re just having like a big steak, and no veggies that can be problematic.

So it comes back down to being more flexible.

So yes, listening to your body and saying like, “Hey, I actually don’t feel like meat today. Let me just focus on a plant-based meal.”

And for females on our cycle, we’re losing iron with our cycle, so you might crave meat. You might find like, “Oh I really want a burger right now.” And again, that’s your body communicating.

If you ever, in my opinion, if you’re craving meat that’s your body communicating like, “Hey we need protein, we need iron, we need something found in meat.”

So that’s where the intuitive part comes in.

But for us to go full trend and full set of “I’m vegan” like it’s a label, it’s a title for identifying with our diets, which is just unnatural.

It’s so unnatural. Human beings never titled their diet, right? We just try to eat to survive.

It’s just more recently where, yeah, we try to be popular because we’re vegan or we try to do whatever based on a fad, follow the trend.

And so we just have to be really careful with that and still come back to it.

You know, some days like I don’t really want meat, you know, I don’t really want to have any chicken or beef.

Or you know, I don’t really even feel like it.

We have to be intuitive and flexible with our diet.

Sabrina Chevannes: I’m so glad you said that because I am all for people doing what they need to do.

But I hate the fact that other people try to force it upon others and tell others that like, you know, fine, if you want to be vegan, and like you said, a vegan diet works for you, then that’s great.

You look fantastic, well done, good on you.

But it doesn’t mean that that’s going to work for me.

Like I’m probably going to feel sick, I’m probably going to feel really sluggish and tired because I don’t have the same energy that I would have had from meat, but that’s just my body. It doesn’t mean the same.

And so I really, it really bugs me that there are so many things out there, so many people who are just like “vegan, vegan, vegan is the only way.”

And like, as someone who’s actually qualified in this area, do you not think it’s misleading?

Because a lot of these companies are pro-vegan because it’s trendy, because if you’re vegan now you’ll seem to be helping the environment, pro animals, and you actually become more popular and you gain kind of like this kudos for it as a company.

And I just think that people are doing it for that popularity, not because they actually care about people and I feel like it’s misleading because if I say “this is better for you” surely that’s bad medical advice, saying that like surely if you’re saying that it’s different for every person.

So isn’t there something that can be done like from a food perspective or like you know the authorities to get involved and be like right FDA are not liking this kind of wording, surely?

Tatiana Keay: where someone could just be like, “Hey everybody, let’s stop following the trends, let’s be intuitive, let’s take the individualized approach,” but that’s probably not going to happen anytime soon because the people that are in charge are very powerful, money-hungry people.

Pharmaceutical industry, money-hungry. Big food industry, very money-hungry.

So they are going to go along with the trends so that way they make the most money, right?

So again, it comes back down to the individual person.

And of course anyone listening to your podcast is likely an open-minded person.

So kudos to you for taking the step to find your own knowledge, not to believe the status quo, and it’s up to the individual person to question it.

If we don’t question it, we will just believe that the vegan diet is the best diet out there when there are in fact nutritional deficiencies.

Going back on your environmental point like, “oh it’s better for the environment,” actually some of those meat alternatives use more water than beef does.

So in fact, it’s actually not better for the environment. It’s worse than grass-fed, grass-finished beef.

Sabrina Chevannes: I think this a lot because I think I’ve had a lot of fake meat. I’ve got vegan friends and when I’ve been doing the veggie diet I feel like I’ve been cheating because I’ve been doing the meat, you know, not meat supplements, the meat alternatives, what do they call them? The climate beef replacements?

Tatiana Keay: The meat alternatives?

Sabrina Chevannes: Yeah, whatever. Fake chicken basically. I just feel like some of the stuff is so good, like it actually tastes just like the real thing. I was thinking this cannot be natural. To make it taste so similar to chicken or duck, which I’ve had, I’m like you must put a whole lot of unnatural stuff in this. This cannot be that healthy.

I totally get people who eat fresh greens and all that kind of stuff, that’s lovely, like go make a nice salad or whatever, that’s healthy. But I feel like adding then the fake processed meat or whatever it is that goes into it when you’re having a lot of that surely bad for you.

Tatiana Keay: It’s processed and the human body was never meant to eat processed foods.

So this is across the board, like the foundation for a good human diet, which is a whole food plant-based diet.

Now for some people it might mean more meat-heavy like in Asia, for others it might be more plant-heavy as it was in more northern countries, right?

But all of those things are whole foods. There’s one ingredient in beef. There is one ingredient in rice, right?

Versus you take this steak meat, it has 20-plus ingredients. That’s not whole food. That is something that was created in a lab, created by the food industry who don’t have a good interest in mind.

So ultimately we need to question the foods that are very processed, even if they’re deemed healthy, and come back to, okay, could I switch this out for a whole food?

Sabrina Chevannes: I did not even realize that’s why Whole Foods is called Whole Foods.

Is that what it is?

Tatiana Keay:Yes, I think that’s where it started. However, again, it’s a business. They have plenty of products there that are processed, that are not “whole food.”

But I’m sure originally that’s why they called themselves Whole Foods. They focused on good high-quality vegetables, good high-quality products with minimal ingredients and minimal preservatives.

So I think originally maybe that’s why they call themselves Whole Foods.

Sabrina Chevannes:
I love… I’m just working that out now. It’s good. But you made me think that because, you know, you talked about influences and you’re saying that you wish there were people out there to kind of stick up, speak up about this.

Are there any influencers out there who are doing this? Who are calling out on the bullshit of those people, like pro-vegan?

Because there’s a few people, for example, who are trying to normalize women’s bodies, and I think they’re fantastic. Those people on Instagram are absolutely needed.

Are there any other people who are doing that on a food front and being like, “Look guys, you can eat whatever the hell you want and still be really healthy and still have a good body”?

Like, here I am one day with a cake and here I am one day with a glass of wine. You don’t have to have no dairy, no fat, no alcohol. It’s everything in moderation, right?

And it’s just that sort of thing. Are there any? Is there anyone out there who we should be following that does that kind of thing?

Tatiana Keay:
Yeah, there’s a couple dietitians that I personally follow.

And I know one is very big on cultural diet, right?

So you know, she’s Asian and she eats rice. There’s nothing wrong with rice, you know.

And I think it’s more in like the body image world to where you have people that are like “oh everybody is beautiful, accept your body for what it is,” but also because again it is Instagram, it is social media, now we have these other extremes, right?

So we have the crazy dieters, but then we have these other anti-dieters who are like “F diets, stop losing weight,” like they’re just too extreme in my opinion.

And it’s like you should still find balance between the two.

Like you should find balance between, you know, the vegan diet and like being anti-diet, we should find the middle ground and what works for us.

And so yeah, there are some people online that are more realistic I guess, you know, that do believe in moderation.

And I would say for the most part dietitians are that way, you know, because we’re all human. Like I go and eat a burger too sometimes.

Like sometimes I like to bake cookies and like some of my patients don’t believe it but I do eat those foods because life is life.

And those foods can be part of a happy life.

It’s when we start abusing those foods and start emotionally eating, right?

We come home and we’re stressed and so we’re using food to feel better. That’s where the line is drawn when it comes to eating those treats versus, yeah, so when you’re going to have a piece of cake.

Sabrina Chevannes: Yeah exactly.

And I feel like you’re right because then the whole point of people doing this is to make themselves happier because they look a certain way, but then if you’re removing all your favorite foods from your diet and you don’t even enjoy what you’re doing, then you’re just removing your happiness as well.

So I don’t think that could be healthy.

And you’re right, I’ve seen some of the people on there who are like the opposite, they’re anti-dieters, and they are actually, you know, some of them overweight and some of them don’t look healthy.

I feel like there is an extreme.

So it’s like you could be healthy and maybe a little bit overweight, fine, but you can also learn to have a healthier diet for your own cardiovascular system or whatever.

It doesn’t mean that you have to become a vegan or do all that kind of stuff.

So I do think it’s a balance and I think people are kind of doing it for the shock factor as well.

And this is also very strange because you’ve got again some influencers who have the perfect body, which we’ll come on to what that actually looks like in a minute.

But I work with a girl and she was telling me that she used to work in this amazing ice cream shop and she saw influencers come in all the time because these ice creams look amazing, they’ve got loads of followers on Instagram.

They’ll come in, they’ll do the photos or take a picture with it and then they’ll throw it straight in the bin.

And this is like $10 for an ice cream as well, so it’s not even cheap, they’ll just throw it straight in the bin.

I know this because I’ve seen this in restaurants for example, they’ll go out and they’ll order like a big burger and they’ll have their photos in front of it and then they’ll take it back and have a salad and it’s like it’s also fake.

But they’re trying to say “oh no we ate it normally” and we just happen to have a body like this.

And it’s fake.

And I hate that because I just think that’s fraud in a way.

And it’s like again these people they’re talking about this perfect body and like you said everyone’s different right.

But you must have a lot of people coming to you who are patients and have probably seen this and are intimidated by Instagram and TikTok and all that these days with all those influencers.

And don’t you think there is like especially for a while I’ve met a lot of women and there was this perfect body type, I feel like all the influencers now seem to have the same body type.

It’s not like, like I said there are people disrupting it who are saying everyone’s beautiful, but there was definitely a big trend of you have to get the exact same body type.

And I’ve seen horrific behind the scenes images where they’re putting cushions down the bum to make it bigger and it just makes me so sad that that’s what it’s come to.

But you must see that all the time, like patients complaining about this stuff.

Tatiana Keay: Well it’s not even that they complain about it.

They just come in and I can tell they’re just drained.

They don’t look like that, that they’re doing everything they can and they still don’t look like that, or that they hate their own bodies because they’re you know 10 or 20 pounds overweight.

It’s very sad and I wouldn’t say they come out and straight complain about it, but I see it in their faces.

And I see it in their actions because when you feel bad about your own body you’re not going to respect it, right?

You’re going to binge. You’re going to eat the junk food because it’s like well screw this, I’m never going to look like that.

And so it is really sad and it hurts my heart.

And even back in the day like Hollywood and magazines did this right.

We would see magazines and models and think they have a perfect body, and then we realize they’re just airbrushed, right?

That photo is edited to the extreme.

And even with influencers we’re seeing the same thing, like you said they’re getting the ice cream and then throwing it out and not actually eating it.

And you also have to think people that are beautiful, let’s just appreciate the 10 out of 10 beautiful women out there.

Number one, most of them have enhanced beauty, right? They have extensions, eyelash extensions, Botox, and some even go as far as plastic surgery.

So it’s like we have to give ourselves a break. If we don’t have the money to invest in our beauty in that way, right?

And just remember most of those people do spend a ton of money enhancing their beauty, so it is in a way fake.

And I’m more like the natural approach. I don’t want to do anything to my body that is unnatural.

And by all means if you want Botox go for it girl, you do you.

But we just have to remember we are normal human beings and many people spend a lot of money to look more beautiful.

Sabrina Chevannes: I remember seeing an article a few years ago which made me feel better because it was showing Beyoncé and her outfit and how much it actually costs.

And her outfit basically cost like 85 grand because they included the amount of money spent on plastic surgery or hair extensions and all that kind of stuff, and it came to like 85 grand.

And I was like yeah I’m never going to be spending that much money, I’m fine, I’m okay.

It made me feel a lot better that it was so out of reach.

But I think you made me start thinking again because you said about stress and I was thinking we’re going to come back to that because I feel like especially for other people listening who are busy small business owners and entrepreneurs, there’s a lot of stress in that lifestyle.

And there’s a lot of stuff out there talking about how to reduce stress.

But everything you just said makes me feel more stressed thinking about scrolling Instagram comparing yourself to all these perfect women.

And it makes you more stressed like you said binge eating and then you’re going to be depressed because you look in the mirror and see love handles or cellulite and then you eat more because of it.

It’s a vicious cycle.

And then you get stressed because you don’t fit into your clothes and you feel more demoralized.

You already have that on top of everything else going on in your life.

So it’s got to be really bad for you.

And you said stress is another big factor so I definitely want to hear more about that because I’ve had so many things and stress can cause so many problems.

Like it affects every part of the body.

But how do you realize when stress is affecting your gut?

What are the signs?

And how do we know when that’s happening?

And how do we stop it basically?

Tatiana Keay: right.

So number one, if you’re having a digestive symptom, I would always come back to your emotional well-being.

You know, whether it’s even like a stomach ache, whether it’s diarrhea or constipation, that is your body telling you something.

That’s the only way your body can communicate and get your attention like, “Hey, take care of me. We’re under a lot of stress,” or we’re under depression or whatever the emotional trigger is.

And most times with digestive issues, it is stress, you know, especially with stomach aches.

Stress and a go, go, go personality, that is the biggest cause to stomach aches, right?

And so yes, we need to take back control.

The first step is always becoming aware.

Okay, I’m aware that my body is going through this symptom. It’s trying to communicate something.

What is it trying to say?

And asking yourself again, body wisdom, what is it trying to say?

And we might find, okay yeah, I guess I’m a little stressed about work, right?

And keep digging, keep digging of like what other stressors there are.

We can’t change the brain unless we become aware of what is hurting us, what is stressing us out.

And so if that means yeah, social media is causing stress because when you scroll you see all these perfect bodies and then you look in the mirror and see your cellulite and you’re like, well crap, I don’t look like that.

It causes more stress, then maybe that means going on a social media hiatus or taking a detox from social media is a good idea, right?

Or if that means meditating on self-love, we can add that into our practice.

So we need to find these little practices in order to manage the stress, especially that has to do with the outer world, right?

Whether it has to do with us comparing, whether it has to do with us overworking, right?

We have to come back and ask, what does my body need right now?

Does it need quiet?

Does it need a break from the comparison?

So that way we can actually heal the body and make lifelong changes.

Sabrina Chevannes: I think that’s so nice to hear and I think, you know, I think everyone tries to reduce stress from their life, but doesn’t always manage to do so successfully.

And I think that, you know, lots of people have had stomach problems in the past and I’d be curious to know what you think as well about people being diagnosed with IBS because I feel like I know from my whole family of doctors.

Like I said, that’s a pet peeve of theirs.

It’s a diagnosis by omission basically.

It’s like when someone doesn’t know what the problem is, they’re like okay, it’s IBS.

It’s not that it’s not real, but you can’t even test for it.

So how can you definitively say someone has IBS?

And then I hear so many people going, “Oh I have IBS,” this this and this, and they become like the little IBS club and they moan about it and it becomes a thing.

But like you’re saying, if you keep exploring and you keep testing, like eliminating things in the diet, see what happens, makes it better, limiting stress, then at least you’re actually making progress and actually improving things.

But if not, you’re just ignoring it all.

“Oh you’ve got IBS, there’s nothing you can really do about it.”

Surely that causes problems in itself.

I want to know your opinion on the IBS diagnosis.

Tatiana Keay: Okay, so IBS is interesting.

And like you said, the diagnosis is made when all other testing is inconclusive.

The endoscopy is negative, the colonoscopy is negative, all the testing is negative.

And so doctors will just put this IBS stamp on a person.

And yeah, some people start to identify with it, you know, they create clubs and they’re like, “We have IBS, IBS is just the worst.”

But what I find with my patients who have quote-unquote IBS is if we can change both the diet and their mental health and we see improvements, then yeah, what they do have is technically irritable bowels because the nervous system is so deeply connected to the digestive system.

We can impact our gut with our emotional well-being and our gut can impact our mental health.

And so if we can take care of the mental health aspect, that alone can actually resolve IBS symptoms.

It’s just a lot of hard work to go through past traumas or whatever it is.

A lot of IBS, I have found personally with my experience, is linked to trauma in the past or a really bad food poisoning bout.

And what’s interesting over the last two years is we’ve been finding a new condition.

What a lot of people were thinking was their IBS is actually SIBO, small intestinal bacterial overgrowth.

And I don’t know if you’ve heard about it, but I see so many patients now that thought they had IBS when in reality they have SIBO.

And again, this is usually due to a previous food poisoning bout or some type of trauma or surgery.

And so now we know actually how to treat SIBO patients, although it’s not easy.

I’d rather deal with IBS than SIBO.

But we’re finding that we know how to actually treat these patients.

And again, it is through diet, it is through lifestyle, and number one, I think in my opinion, is their mental health, their emotional well-being.

**Sabrina Chevannes:** That’s so crazy that you’re basically saying how much, and it’s totally true, and that’s why I think the world is more aware of mental health at the moment.

But again, I think that’s the trend, that’s the fad of people going on about mental health.

It’s a big thing at the moment, but they don’t understand how it connects to your body so much and it’s so impressive to hear that.

Actually, if someone is out there now feeling those stomach pains, and it’s the same as when people are nervous, they get that feeling in the stomach, right?

And that’s a normal thing.

But look how much the mental, your brain state at the time, could affect your body so much, and it totally does affect it.

So I guess what your advice would be, if someone’s got these symptoms and they maybe haven’t been diagnosed or they’ve had diagnostic tests and it’s all come back negative and they’ve got supposed IBS, then work on the mental health and eliminate a few things and see what happens.

I guess then it’s only going to help you in the grand scheme of things anyway, so what harm can it do?

Because when you get an IBS diagnosis, they say that’s it, you can’t do anything anyway.

So surely this stuff must be better than nothing.

Tatiana Keay: Right, to work on the mental health aspect is easiest, right?

Versus like, there’s so many diets out there for IBS.

Again, I just recommend the whole food plant-based approach.

Although there are some diets for IBS like the low FODMAP diet.

There’s some other diets out there, but ultimately those should be under medical supervision.

You should be working with a dietitian for the elimination diets.

Because the thing that I’ve seen, which is probably the most concerning thing that I see, is patients will eliminate, eliminate, eliminate, eliminate until they’re eating like five foods, like they’re eating zucchini and tilapia.

And it scares me because these patients are just doing this elimination on their own and now they’re missing a lot of nutrients that they were originally getting.

And although those foods did make them feel bad, that’s not the way you treat IBS.

That’s not the way you treat digestive issues.

So doing any type of elimination diet, we need to be very cautious because it can get almost addicting to just keep eliminating and that fear gets very strong.

The fear of “If I eat that food, I’m going to be sick,” right?

And so patients stay away from it. They have a fear.

And so when they do eat that food in the future, the mind is so powerful, yeah they do feel sick.

It’s the placebo effect, but the opposite where you eat the food, you think it’s going to make you sick, and it does.

And so we have to be very careful with elimination diets.

So for the general person who has digestive issues, focus on the mental health and then focus on just doing more of a whole food plant-based diet, less processed food, and see what happens.

Sabrina Chevannes: How many of the people do you see actually have eating disorders because of all of this stuff that’s going on?

I feel like there’s so much obsession with diet and eating, right?

How many of them end up with eating disorders?

Tatiana Keay: Yeah.

So luckily I catch a lot of my digestive issue patients before the eating disorder actually grows into something problematic again, because that fear of food hurting them, it’s almost like a trauma.

Whereas the eating disorder world of young girls having eating disorders, two of my best friends actually work with eating disorders, so that’s more their specialty.

Although obviously I’m very well versed with the eating disorder problem that is growing.

It’s growing.

So a couple of my patients have a history of eating disorders and it’s a rough diagnosis.

And it’s usually due to trauma, previous trauma.

But also we have to not forget the culture we live in, the social media again surrounding us, the grandparents who are old school saying, “Hey, you look fat,” right?

Like of course that’s going to trigger a young teenage girl who just went through puberty and just started gaining some fat on her body.

So it’s an issue, but I think over time again, now that we’re starting to talk about it, we can start progressing and moving forward.

But you really can’t help anyone that doesn’t want to be helped.

Sabrina Chevannes: That’s the problem though, right?

Because I think everyone probably knows someone with some sort of eating disorder and how do you help them?

Because you want to help them.

You’re saying that they can’t be helped unless they want to be helped, but you can’t just sit back and do nothing.

You want to do something.

So what is there for us to do to help these people?

Because I feel like those people say, “Oh stay off Instagram, honestly it’s so bad for you,” but they don’t do it.

They still aspire to be these so-called influencers and they don’t get how much of their life is fake, how much of their stuff has been run through the body app for example and then given themselves fake abs and whatever, buttocks and all this kind of stuff.

And they’re not going to listen to reason at this point.

How do you help those people with eating disorders?

Because I know that everyone who knows someone is going to want to help them.

Tatiana Keay:Right.

And I mean there’s different levels of the severity of the eating disorder.

Obviously those who are so sick that they’ve completely damaged their body or need to get hospitalized, they’re on a different level of treatment, right?

Versus the person who doesn’t have any issues but just has more disordered eating.

Those are the friends and family members that we just have to love them for who they are.

Because a lot of people do these things because they don’t have that, they don’t have the love and belonging.

They don’t feel good enough.

And so for us to just create a sacred place for them and say like, “Hey, I see you, you’re beautiful just the way you are.”

And like I know the person on Instagram is beautiful, but you are too.

And seeing them for who they really are, I think that’s how we can heal our inner circle, right?

But then yeah, there’s people in the outer skirts who need that too from their inner circle.

Yeah, but I believe in the ripple effect.

Like if we can slowly love and heal one person, that person will go off and do the same.

Sabrina Chevannes: That’s nice.

I wish I had more hope because I think there’s still a lot of people out there who just enjoy bringing down other people and that’s the problem.

And unfortunately those people exist.

And so I guess the last thing I want to ask is for a bit of advice for all the women out there.

I say all the women out there, neglecting the fact that men obviously have problems with diets and eating disorders and stuff.

And actually you can accidentally say the wrong things to a guy and they also end up with these problems.

But I feel like maybe being a woman, I’m more connected with that because I hear all my friends talking about it.

But men totally obviously have the same sort of thing.

They’re scrolling through Instagram and they’re seeing all these men with six packs and thick thighs and big biceps and they’re just like, “Oh my God, why haven’t I got that?”

So my bad for pretending that men don’t have eating problems when they do.

But you know, I want to I guess speak to the women just because we’re both women, probably more connected with how that feels and the negativity that we see on a daily basis.

Like what advice would you give to the average Jane?

And I don’t mean that as average in terms of like you say every woman is beautiful.

By me saying average, I’m not saying that you’re average looking, none of that.

I just mean the normal everyday person who’s not an influencer or a multi-millionaire who can afford all this sort of stuff.

The general regular person who scrolls through, who maybe lacks a little bit of self-confidence from time to time, who just wants again to be in better shape or drop a dress size because they’ve got a cool event to go to or a holiday to go to.

And how do you stay sane on the likes of TikTok and Instagram?

Yes okay, we could mute them, maybe that is the right way to go.

But how do we survive with that?

I think there needs to be a way that we can have the willpower to still look at these people, appreciate that they look great, but then what advice would you give to the women out there who maybe feel a little bit down sometimes and want to do something better to improve themselves?

Tatiana Keay: So yeah, it’s another hard question to answer, but ultimately it comes down to understanding the truth — the truth about the female body. Sorry men, but your body is different here. The female body goes through many changes throughout life.

Depending on where you are in life, you have to remember to give yourself grace first and foremost. If you’re 50 years old trying to have a 20-year-old body while following a 20-year-old influencer, we’ve got to come back to the truth.

Number one, the female body goes through puberty in high school, right? You start to gain more fat and you’re like, “Oh wow, boobs. Now I have a butt.” Then in our 20s, especially later 20s, our body starts changing again. It’s a natural process.

Then when we get pregnant and have babies, our body goes through yet another shift. Each decade is different for the female body all the way up until menopause.

So we first and foremost have to come back to that truth. What part of the female timeline are you on? Give yourself a little grace for that.

For the woman who has her small business and three children, give yourself some grace for having a little bit of fat and some curves. If anything, love those curves because you got three little baby humans out of it, right?

I told my sister-in-law — she was trying to diet and lose weight, and there’s nothing wrong with that. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. It was just the way she was going about it and the fact that she was hating her body.

I said, “Look at your two beautiful girls. Look at them. You created those human beings with your own body.”

So we have to come back to the truth that the human body is going to change, and that’s okay. We have to accept it first, and then we can make changes out of self-respect instead of shame.

I think a lot of people right now, again because of social media, change because they don’t feel good enough. It’s inadequacy and shame. It’s “If only I looked like that, then I would be happy.”

But in reality, we should say, “Hey, I’m good the way I am right now,” and then make changes out of self-respect and self-love.

Sabrina Chevannes: Yeah, I wish everyone could think like that. It would be so nice. I feel like if women weren’t threatened by each other, things would be so much easier.

Hopefully, like you said, if women continue to lift each other up and support one another, then it will become easier.

But how much of this is in your new book then? You’ve got a new book coming out, so tell me — how much of what we talked about is in that?

Tatiana Keay: Yeah, the majority of what we talked about earlier is in the book at some point — the body image issues, the feeling of needing to be skinny, the feeling of needing to go vegan.

Most of those topics are in the book, along with a lot more controversial topics. Obviously, I’m similar to you in the sense that I want to know the truth — screw all the fake stuff, right?

So that’s what I ended up doing with this book — exploring nutrition and all the different lies we’ve been told or indoctrinated to believe. I go through and debunk quite a few of those.

For your listeners, I’d like to give them the first chapter so they can read it. The first chapter is called It’s Not Your Fault.

From there, once we accept, “Hey, it’s not my fault, but it is my choice,” then we can move on and make real, lifelong behavior changes.

Sabrina Chevannes: That’s brilliant, and I love that.

I’m going to put a link to the first chapter of the book and obviously where people can get the whole book in the show notes and everything like that.

Where can our listeners get in touch with you if they have more questions?

Tatiana Keay: Yeah, Instagram is probably the best way — even though we’ve been talking about Instagram. Especially if you’re looking for people who are not going to tell you to eat a certain way.

My Instagram handle is **@VitaminKRD** — K for Keay.

On there, I try to promote other dietitians who are doing the same thing and spreading the same message. Honestly, unfollow the people who trigger you. I have to do that now too.

Especially over the last two years — I actually got off social media for about 18 months for my own mental health. Now that I’m back on, anytime someone triggers me, I unfollow them because I’m on there to do good.

If I’m feeling bad going on Instagram, then that’s not productive.

But yeah, follow me on Instagram. I feel like I do a pretty good job of staying in the middle ground.

Sabrina Chevannes: Yeah, I totally agree with that. I unfollow people I don’t vibe with now. Mainly, I just follow dogs because they bring happy vibes and don’t seem to offend anyone, so that’s my Instagram.

But thank you so much. I think there’s been some amazing things talked about today and some great advice.

I’ll make sure I put all the contact details in the show notes, and I’m sure people will continue having conversations with you going forward. But thank you for being on the show.

Tatiana Keay: You’re so welcome.

I’m so glad we had the more controversial conversation about everything we talked about because ultimately it’s up to the listener to question what they’ve been told and make changes.

Start with yourself, and then we can slowly heal the world.

Sabrina Chevannes: And that’s exactly the point of the show — no bullshit on this talk show. Hopefully more people will come on the podcast, be honest like you, and highlight what the industry is really like.

Thank you so much, and thanks to everyone who tuned in. I’ll see everyone next week for a new episode of No Bullshit Talks.