Sabrina Chevannes: Hi everyone, and welcome to this week’s episode of No Bullshit Talks, where I’m joined here today by Johnathan McFarlane, who is the Director of Strategy at Hybrid Marketing Company. Welcome.

Johnathan McFarlane: Hey, thanks Sabrina. I’m excited to be here and have a conversation with you today.

Sabrina Chevannes: Thanks. Actually, I should really also say that he’s also joined here by Gizmo. Is that right?

Johnathan McFarlane: Yes.

So you can see him there.

Sabrina Chevannes: I feel sorry for you because you can’t see his really, really cute face. But, you know, he’s been really quiet.

Johnathan McFarlane: Poodle mixed with schnauzer, about 12 pounds, so you can kind of imagine what it looks like.

Sabrina Chevannes:
He’s golden brown and he’s super cute and he’s just looking at you so adoringly. It is really scary snuggly.

Johnathan McFarlane: Yeah, very snuggly little guy.

Sabrina Chevannes: Well for the listeners, if he barks and gets excited then maybe you’ll realize that that’s who it is. I want to talk to you about Hybrid Marketing Company. You guys are a marketing agency, but you have an ultra niche specialty and that unique angle that you market just for the cannabis industry, right?

Johnathan McFarlane: That’s right. Yeah, the cannabis industry is growing really quickly across the U.S. and we’re based in Colorado, which is where it actually started. And yeah, I mean, you probably hear a lot that being an agency for everyone is a really, really tough thing to do.

And so, when we were trying to decide, well, what do we want to do? What kind of agency do we want to be? This is something where a lot of us have already had expertise and, you know, just kind of grew organically, I guess you could say.

Sabrina Chevannes: When you say expertise, does that mean you all just smoked cannabis before that was even…?

Johnathan McFarlane: So before I got into the cannabis industry, it was definitely not my thing. It wasn’t really something I was interested in. It wasn’t something that I used really at all myself. You know, like college was different, but that was 20 years ago.

And yeah, so it just sort of like my skills worked in this industry and it’s small enough and new enough to where, you know, two or three years and all of a sudden you’re like a veteran. Where you talk about like the CPG or tech space or something like that and people are doing it a lot longer before they sort of hit their stride. So like many people, you know, I was looking for a new opportunity and this is where I found it.

Sabrina Chevannes: I’m so glad you said about how agencies should not be for everyone and I think that’s what so many people miss the mark when it comes to any sort of marketing or any business, right?

And you know, that’s where we went wrong when I first was running my agency two years ago. We were the most generic agency, you know, we did everything for everyone because we thought that if you have as many people in your target audience as possible, then it means more opportunities of business.

And then what we did realize was that you just get lost in this sea of people and you’re not really distinguished between all the other agencies doing exactly the same thing. So, you know, a couple of years ago we completely rebranded and that’s when we became the No Bullshit Agency, and hence No Bullshit Talks and what we’re doing today and staying true to the brand. But, you know, it’s controversial, right?

So when we launched, people were just like, the first thing you see on your website is like obscenity and it’s like, what the hell? They just looked at that and some people were like, oh, that’s so unprofessional. And a lot of people will still say that, you know, you’re alienating a lot of people because of your brand.

But I was like, the people who come to the website and like it, they love it. They connect with us and they’re like, right, these are my kind of people and I need to pick up the phone now. They’re instant customers. We didn’t even need to sell to them because they look at the site and they’re like, this is so refreshing. They’re so different and they know what they’re going to get.

And yeah, maybe the really professional standard corporate people aren’t going to like it, but they’re not our target audience and it took us a while to get there. But I think that’s got to be the right approach.

Johnathan McFarlane: Oh yeah, for sure. And you know, it’s kind of funny. We have a page on our website that is literally titled “Shit We’re Good At.” And other than the homepage, like other than just the standard front page, that is the second most trafficked page on our entire website and it’s for the same reason you’re talking about.

It stands out, it’s unexpected, and I mean, that’s half the battle, is just standing out.

Sabrina Chevannes: It is. And that’s what I consistently tell clients as well on a daily basis. It’s like, okay, so you’re doing this other product, which okay, another 75 other people are doing in the vicinity of your area. How on Earth do you stand out?

Yes, you could go cheap. But again, you know, you’re standing out sort of for the wrong reasons. But also, even if someone had a product that was more expensive, they’re not going to leave that product they know and love and trust for this unknown new product, even if it’s slightly cheaper, you know? So it’s a really tough thing to do.

Sabrina Chevannes: But I’m always interested in that you kind of specialize in cannabis and I guess, what was the conversation with you guys like then? How did you decide on that? What was it about? How did that happen?

Johnathan McFarlane: Yeah, so the agency started a few years before I joined up and it was initially a much more generic agency, kind of like what you’re describing.

And then somebody that joined on brought a cannabis client with them that they had been working for elsewhere. And then I had joined the industry working in Canada as the Director of Marketing for a cannabis business that makes really large harvesting equipment for the industry.

And so, that was how I got into the industry and then Hybrid sort of poached me, I guess you could say, convinced me to move back here to Denver and join up.

And when I sort of started talking about this, knowing that they had a cannabis client and now I have a lot better understanding of that industry after being in it for a few years, it was sort of like, well, this for me is the path of least resistance.

Like, if you want me to help bring in business, it’s got to be cannabis because that’s what I know really well. That’s the industry that I feel most comfortable in and that’s also where I see the most opportunity compared to what they had been doing on the other side of the business, which is really just sort of that generic catch-all and that makes it so hard to sell.

Johnathan McFarlane: Well, just like you’re talking about, when you’re trying to sell to everybody, it’s really difficult. When you’re trying to sell to a very specific group and you know what they’re interested in, you know what they need, you know the tactics that work, you know the messaging that works, you can speak their language, that is just so much easier and just so much more effective.

And so our president Greg, he was like, “That’s what you want to do? Let’s do it,” and he just kind of let me run with it. And that’s the part of the business that really took off.

And so that’s why Hybrid really became this cannabis-focused entity.

Sabrina Chevannes: And so, what exactly do you do for these cannabis companies? Like, okay, marketing agency for cannabis companies is quite vague. So what exactly do you do for them?

Johnathan McFarlane: Yeah, so we’re really like a bespoke type of agency. I mean, what we do for each client is truly different for each client. So we don’t talk, we don’t talk about like one specific tactic being a specialty. We talk about the industry as a whole being a specialty.

So for some clients, you know, it could be design work, could be email marketing, could be lead generation. You know, it’s kind of on the outskirts of what we consider marketing, but still. So we do webinars for some clients.

We do a lot of long form content for like business to business clients, you know, guides and like checklists and that kind of stuff. A lot of copywriting, a lot of design. So print and programmatic.

A lot of creative work, even video. It is truly like any sort of tactic you can imagine we deploy. But another part of how we differentiate ourselves, even in the cannabis industry, from our competitors is that we see ourselves as more of a strategic partner that then executes rather than the other way around.

So our ideal clients are the ones that come to us knowing that they need help, knowing that they need marketing or maybe they need branding, but not knowing past that point. And that’s where we come in. We learn a lot about the business in a really deep way, deeper than most agencies do, and we create a plan specifically for them to help them meet their goals.

And as much as I love beautiful websites and really great design, we always try to connect what we’re doing back to business drivers, increasing revenue, reducing risk, things like that. That the C-level, that’s kind of the language that executives like to speak. You know, like they don’t really care that much if the website is beautiful, they care if it does what it’s supposed to do. And so that’s kind of how we approach things, just this really custom kind of thing. We don’t do like different prepackaged lines of service or anything like that.

Sabrina Chevannes: You say like guides and webinars and stuff, I was thinking what kind of guides are you doing? It kind of is like a guide to how many joints it’s going to take me to smoke before I get sufficiently high.

Sabrina Chevannes: Like, I’m just like at what what guides do you have? It is cannabis industry. What content goes out there? Like, I mean, it’s just I can’t even imagine it, it’s crazy.

Johnathan McFarlane: Well sure. Yes. I’ll give you two examples that are completely different from each other.

The first one is for a dispensary client called Lightshade. They’re like truly our oldest client. They’re based here in Denver. I think they have 12 locations now. And we created a complete women’s introductory guide to cannabis. And there is a printed version, but that’s not really why we did it.

It exists on their site as this enormous pillar page. I think before we even added imagery and links and video clips and stuff like that, I think it was 36 pages typed, you know, before we actually turned it into the page. And for them, that’s really useful. I mean, it’s a useful tool to send out to newcomers, but also for SEO purposes, really useful for that.

And we even used it in programmatic campaigns to like, you know, read the new internet women’s introductory guide to cannabis because a lot of the dispensaries are still fighting for those people that are interested but a little nervous, you know, not really sure what to expect, not really sure how to approach this whole thing, but for one reason or another, they’re trying to learn a bit more about it. And so that was the purpose of that guide.

A completely opposite type of thing would be for the company I worked for in Vancouver, Mobius Trimmer. So for them, we created a number of guides that were buyer’s guides for the type of equipment they produce.

So for example, they produce a very large-scale cannabis trimmer, I mean hundreds of pounds per hour. And it’s a very high, these kinds of things are expensive. I mean it’s like 40 grand, that kind of thing.

Well of course we want to feature them heavily in anything we create, but we created a guide that was a buyer’s guide to large-scale cannabis trimmers. So that somebody who is in the market—this includes Mobius—and of course, you know, we kind of make it look the best—but actually mentions all of the other competitors, pros and cons of each, costs, weights, performance, like all the different KPIs of each machine. And it’s a PDF that lives on the website with a landing page. Like if you want to download it, you just put in your credentials and now that person is a lead. And it’s been really successful for them.

Sabrina Chevannes: I guess that makes sense because obviously people who are growing it and they need to know and get the right tools. And obviously like you said, it’s expensive, so it’s an investment. And I think something like that, the way that you said you include competitors, so it seems fair. I like an honest kind of view.

I’m still trying to work out what’s in that women’s guide. Like I just can’t imagine it.

Anyway, I better read that guide. By the way,

Johnathan McFarlane: I will send you a link. I will tell you later, I’ll send it over to you. Hopefully you find something useful. But you know, like that guide is really geared towards people like my mom.

So my mom has no interest in cannabis whatsoever, but she’s had a sleep problem her whole life. She’s always had trouble sleeping. She’s used all the different medications, prescription ones that are really not good, very addictive.

And so this guide was something where she could explore other categories, like edibles, that kind of thing, that are not traditional, not smoking, not that kind of thing. I mean, it’s just an entry point if you don’t know what you’re doing but you want to learn more, and that’s what it is.

Sabrina Chevannes: That’s me. I’m intrigued. So I’m going to read it on the way to Amsterdam because, you know, that makes sense. It’ll be good reading material.

Sabrina Chevannes: But okay, let’s talk about, you know, the galaxies as well because obviously, like, Colorado, totally makes sense.

Like, you guys are the first state, right to kind of legalize it?

Well, I remember that I was I think I was, I was out in the U.S. then what? Happening.

And I had a friend who was like studying Colorado.

He was like so happy when he had I think he became like everyone’s dinner at that point.

So it was like, but what is the attitude?

Like because you know, I still think that there must be a lot of what you do.

There’s must be a huge education point about it because there must be still a massive proportion of people who are just still like this is still a drug like it’s still wrong to give it to people.

And obviously, there’s medicinal marijuana, but then, there’s also like people take it recreationally, but it’s, but it’s legal in some states and it’s just a whole mixed bag of stuff.

So, what’s that?

What is it?

Like with the attitudes?

Like, first of all, I guess in Colorado, where you guys were kind of pioneers for this and then say spread out and see all the other, all the other states.

Like, what?

What’s the attitude?

Like?

Jonathan McFarlane: Yeah.

Well, here in Colorado.

I mean, we’re, we’re just, we’re basically a decade since adult use legalization.

So, I mean here, it’s pretty normal like talking about working in this industry.

It’s sort of like, I don’t know.

Do you work in the alcohol industry.

It’s like the same kind of thing.

It’s same kind of vibe going to a dispensary here.

It’s not like the cool and edgy thing to do anymore.

It’s just a thing that people do.

Like, if you’re going to go buy your six pack at the liquor store.

You’re going to stop by the dispensary.

It’s, it’s very normal.

The the attitude here is pretty accepted and part of that comes from the community and the conservatives.

Who normally this is, like not their thing.

They see the impact that it has like the tax dollars that are generated.

The revenue that are generated for our state.

From the Cannabis industry is really a lot of money and that goes to policing that goes to schools, that goes to health care.

It has actually really helped revitalize towns that were kind of disappearing off the map.

So it’s been a net positive and I think most people in Colorado agree with that.

But to your point, it is really different from state to state and I think the attitudes it’s more of a regional thing than anything else.

Like if you go towards the South where it is still for the most part, although changing there now too.

But still for the most part very illegal and very frowned upon you.

Do still get that like you guys are taking drugs.

You’re promoting drugs.

You’re selling drugs.

You still get that attitude.

Pretty significantly down there, but you know, that’s, it’s such as such a, it’s such the wrong approach because those are places where overdoses of other drugs like meth and fentanyl are through the roof.

Jonathan McFarlane: So the approach they’ve been using for forever to combat drug use is clearly not working, especially in those areas.

So it just takes time, you know, eventually it will be fully legal here.

The dominoes are going to fall and it’s not going to go back the other way.

So it’s you know, another another decade.

I’m sure surely pretty normal pretty much everywhere in the U.S.

Sabrina Chevannes: Do you think?

So then do you think that’s actually going to be the case?

You think that, you know, in every state in America you’ll be they’ll be it wouldn’t matter to people.

They’ll think it’s completely fine.

Like I said, as they see at the same as alcohol.

Do you actually think it will get to that point?

Jonathan McFarlane: I do, I think, I think for everybody to see it.

The same as alcohol might take even longer than I’m saying.

But but yeah, I mean, I really do think eventually it’s going to just be a pretty standard pretty normal thing that people do, pretty, pretty accepted.

I think federal legalization is maybe a little further off than people have been talking about and that’ll be a gradual process.

It’s not just going to be like, one day it’s just legal everywhere, you know, they’re going to take steps decriminalization and then maybe they open up.

It’s like, like banking and insurance, other more mainstream industries are allowed to get in.

But eventually, it’s going to, it’s going to happen.

I mean, most states now have some sort of legalized system if you include medical as well.

There’s only a handful of states that don’t have anything at all.

So and the money is out there.

I mean, that’s the big thing, politicians love money.

So if you’re donating to their campaigns and you’re lobbying on behalf of your industry, and you have the financial backing to do that, well that really matters.

And this industry does have that and it’s starting to get more of that now too.

Sabrina Chevannes: Well, I was side of America then.

I mean, I don’t know if you’ve managed to come across anyone that’s outside of the U.S., but what do you think their attitudes like towards the industry?

And do you think it’s going to ever be globally legalized?

Jonathan McFarlane: It’s hard to say looking outside of the U.S.

We’ve worked with clients in Canada.

Obviously, it’s federally illegal up there and it’s been a net positive, I think for Canada.

But I don’t know globally if it’s ever going to get that way.

I mean, there’s parts of the world that you can’t drink alcohol.

No, just like where there’s religious tradition that really restrict you from doing that.

So will it ever be accepted globally?

Probably not.

But I mean, nothing is accepted globally now I guess.

Sabrina Chevannes: I guess what those countries are, if they don’t accept alcohol they’re not going to ever accept cannabis to be normal.

But I feel like a lot of places do.

It’s I mean that we’ve had a few clients in the UK who have, you know, who come to us for medical cannabis stuff as well.

We’ve been doing that sort of thing for them and we’ve done their branding, we’ve done like, you know, design stuff and marketing.

And it is always an education piece because I think that the attitude here is generally frowned upon, don’t get me wrong, like most drugs and alcohol, it’s seen as cool in certain groups of people, but obviously in general I’d say that it’s definitely frowned upon.

I can’t even imagine like a time where you just it would just be so normal to go like I said to go pick up a dosage in a pharmacy or whatever.

I just can’t imagine it.

Jonathan McFarlane: You’ve just got to come visit Colorado.

Sabrina Chevannes: I’ve seen it.

I’ve been over there and I’m like this is fascinating and it’s like you’ve got a whole store of like strains and stuff to like choose from.

It’s like a candy shop.

Johnathan McFarlane: It’s like a deli or something like that.

Sabrina Chevannes: I totally get it.

It’s just a bizarre phenomenon.

I just can’t imagine it here though.

Like it’s just, it’s strange and I just can’t imagine what people think about it as well.

Sabrina Chevannes: Like, for example, what do your parents think about you working in the Cannabis industry.

So, I feel like the next generation up a little bit.

What do they think?

Um, I’m a dad. This is what I do for a living. Yeah reaction.

Jonathan McFarlane: Well, I think my parents have just always kind of been supportive of whatever weird correction comes to my career because it has taken a lot of very weird twists and turns.

And they’ve kind of always just sort of supportive, whatever I want to do, which is incredible.

I’m so lucky to have that kind of, you know, that that support from my parents.

And yeah, my dad no interest whatsoever in actual cannabis use but he’s interested in the business because it is kind of weird.

It’s kind of, you know, it’s new.

So he’s always ask me.

How’s things going on or what’s new with this client or whatever?

My mom on the other hand though.

She she is now a cannabis user never ever could have imagined that even a few years ago, but but it wasn’t for her.

It was the sleep thing.

Like she, like I mentioned, she tried all these medications for years and none of them worked, and she never had nor will she ever have any interest in smoking anything.

So for her, the way she consumes cannabis is like a gummy, like a small edible she’ll take before bed.

And so, you know, for her cannabis means sleep, cannabis means like waking up rested and feeling normal, you know, like the alternative was, what’s that, like Ambien that she was taking, you know, that’s strong stuff.

It actually dries the hell out of you, right.

It can mess you up pretty good.

And so this she sees as a more natural way to do it with less side effects.

And, you know, I mean, if somebody wants to make that choice from a pretty significantly strong pharmaceutical to something like a micro dose gummy, I don’t know why we would discourage them from that.

Sabrina Chevannes: Well, I think like in the UK CBD is the cool thing, right?

Because we don’t, we don’t have legal cannabis.

So those people who want to have who have sleep problems and they’re trying to find these solutions, and just like that bears like I guess all the things that people talk about like aching joints and all this kind of things, right.

They think of CBD and it became a thing, right?

That everyone’s making stuff from hemp or like CBD oils and and then suddenly it was maybe it’s not five years ago.

Now it started being really popular and trendy, it’s still happening, but I guess it’s more normal now.

But what do you think of like the CBD industry?

Is it just like a gimmick that people want to jump on or do you think the products actually work?

Like what is your thoughts compared to the like the actual real cannabis industry?

Jonathan McFarlane: Yeah, so the CBD industry here is really competitive.

It’s really really saturated.

So anybody that’s listening that is interested in getting into that industry.

I would say probably don’t because it’s very very difficult.

We have clients that work in that industry specifically like that side of the industry I guess you could say.

And it’s really tough just because it’s so competitive.

But in terms of the products themselves and if they actually work.

It does seem to be different for everybody.

You know, like I’ve taken CBD products for sleep that helped me fall asleep for sure.

But then I’ve also taken them with the intention of like fixing up my knee that’s always stiff and they haven’t seemed to do anything for that.

But then, I mean, you might talk to somebody else that had an aching joint and they’re like it was like a miracle cure.

So I think the jury is still out on CBD products, what they can be used for, what they can actually do for you.

But I will say there is there is now FDA so like our pharmaceutical governing body approved medicines with CBD in them for epilepsy.

I think it’s called Epidiolex and it’s gone through the whole FDA approval process and it’s been proven in lots of different studies to actually help kids that have this severe form of epilepsy.

So there is something to it.

You know, I mean, I think the jury is still out on what it’s good for and what is actually hype and what kind of dosages are effective and what aren’t because the way it’s been studied is kind of all over the map.

But you know, I mean, people are still buying it.

Sabrina Chevannes: It’s because they design it really trendy.

Like I mean, we’ve done some stuff so I know it looks trendy.

Like all the packaging is really cool.

Like so I live near Shoreditch in London, which is the trendy hippie part of London basically.

And there’s a CBD shop like every 2 meters I swear.

Like it’s like CBD slash vape slash online vintage clothes stores and that’s what the whole lives of streets are.

So it’s very hippie and trendy.

And I swear like everyone I knew was creating their own CBD products at some point.

Just like everyone’s making gin a few years ago as well.

Like it became this big like trend where it’s like oh this is what’s really cool now and everyone just kind of got into it.

And I think it’s that, it’s just that like it’s a trend but then all these people swear by it and they change their lives.

And like you said like they know they couldn’t sleep and it cured them and their joints.

And you know there must be something in it.

I mean I tried some stuff because I had insomnia for a while.

Didn’t really help.

Like I had knee surgery didn’t really help.

So you know and actually someone that one of the closest things I was told was like we should really give you a prescription for medical marijuana, that’s what they said to me.

And I was like I didn’t suddenly but I would be interesting to try.

That would have been interesting to see if it actually did work.

Because you know it’s they talk about CBD as the safe option.

It’s got no THC or whatever.

But you know a lot of people say oh that’s the good bit or whatever.

And I feel like there might be some sort of placebo effects as well with the marijuana.

But you know there’s also the danger that comes with it.

Because if you’re going to be reliant on something it is a drug just like people forget alcohol is also a drug.

Like if you take that or whatever you’re doing that every day to because people use alcohol as a drug for depression right.

It’s like they have a hard day they’re like a glass two or three let you know whatever it takes to kind of numb that pain.

You’re not actually solving the underlying cause but it just kind of it turns into a problem.

And right it must be loads of that.

And again like how do these companies control that?

There must be less than legal requirements around what they’re talking about because by selling the stuff they’re going to end up people getting addicted to it.

Jonathan McFarlane: Yeah well and there’s studies out there that show that physical addiction to cannabis is pretty hard to do.

You can totally be mentally addicted to it.

But it’s not physically addicting the way that a lot of other drugs are like it’s not like crack or something.

You hear people that have used crack and it’s like one hit and they’re addicted.

It’s not that kind of thing.

So you know just like anything intentional use is important.

And like you know why are you using it.

And if your answer is I don’t know because I just feel like getting high that’s okay too.

But understanding why you’re using it like making sure that it’s not something that you have to have and a lot of that comes back to education.

Like you were talking about that that is a part of it.

But here’s the reality people that are reliant on alcohol a lot of those people are trading for cannabis.

We’re seeing that constantly and we even did a challenge for one of our clients where they were asking people to people that drank wine let’s just say a couple glasses a night to start one night per week where they don’t drink any alcohol but they substitute cannabis.

That was the first couple weeks and then it was two nights a week and three nights a week and just sort of see how you feel and how different you feel in the morning.

I mean that’s the big one you know if you get high like unless you’re getting really wrecked like let’s just say you get medium high happy high.

You know the next morning you probably feel fine whereas with alcohol especially like myself as I get older I have like three beers and next morning I’m not fine.

I have four beers and next day it sucks.

I also have a four-year-old so mornings are not really on my own time.

So you know I get why people would be trying to make that substitution.

Sabrina Chevannes: It’s interesting.

It is interesting but does that mean that marijuana is healthier than wine?

Like you’re substituting wine for weed like it sounds like it’s not a healthier substitute.

Like I know people talk about substitution and diet.

So they’re like oh yeah switch out your cow milk for vegan milk like that whole thing.

It doesn’t really sound like the same sort of thing here like surely there’s bad points to this.

Jonathan McFarlane: Well I mean just like anything you can abuse things for sure but I will challenge you a little bit.

Jonathan McFarlane: I actually think cannabis is much safer than alcohol. Wow. Let me give you a statistic. Guess how many people died from alcohol related, whatever in the US last year.

Sabrina Chevannes: I completely believe that’s a lot more than like my one because obviously the ease of access, their man, that people drink again.

It’s that acceptance, right? That people think, especially in British culture. We’ve got a bad rep for this, right? It’s in British culture. We drink every opportunity. We drink to drown our sorrows. We drink to celebrate something. It’s like it’s a Tuesday, but, you know, like there’s always a reason to drink but to smoke a joint people are like, what are you doing and it’s that kind of, you know, there’s that attitude as well.

So I can’t believe that and alcohol I think is one of the most dangerous drugs and the fact that it’s actually probably more addictive. And you know again all that sort of stuff but like so I believe that the stats of death is probably a lot higher. I guess my question is direct comparison like say if it was exactly the same of what you’re consuming like say if it was one glass of wine a night versus one joint a night.

Jonathan McFarlane: Yeah, I mean, I guess I don’t know I guess I don’t really have any scientific facts I can back that up with if one is truly healthier than the other and then there’s also smoking.

So you’re talking like it’s not really, this is never going to be healthy to smoke something. I mean, it’s definitely healthier than actual cigarettes, but you’re still smoking. You’re still, you know, inhaling something that’s combusted or whatever. But compare that to an edible or something like that where we’re not actually smoking anything, that is a healthier option for sure. I mean, we all have our vices and I think it’s just choosing what makes the most sense for you.

It’s going to do the least amount of damage, provide the most amount of enjoyment or relief for whatever may be. And for a lot of people they’re looking towards cannabis and moving away from alcohol and many people overdosed on cannabis last year in the U.S.

Sabrina Chevannes: Zero.

Johnathan McFarlane:
I’ve got you were right, impressive.

Sabrina Chevannes: That’s pretty impressive, but I can imagine that, like, I feel like, like you said, crack is supposed to be addictive, right as hell. Like it’s, they just want more and more.

Whereas I feel like with cannabis it’s more of the relaxing thing and it’s I guess it’s not something you’re just going to OD on per se I can’t imagine someone.

Jonathan McFarlane: Yeah. Any well and I mean we have a drinking culture here in the U.S. too. I mean it’s different from what you guys do. But for sure a lot of people drink, I like to drink too.

And we hear stories, really horrific stories about young people at parties drinking themselves to death because they don’t know what they’re doing and they over serve people, encouraging them like the frat house thing, back a thing. Yeah. It happens kind of a lot here and you don’t have those stories with cannabis.

Nah, because you can smoke yourself into oblivion or eat way too many edibles and you might feel terrible. Yeah, but it’s not going to kill you. So you know that’s a pretty important difference between the two.

Sabrina Chevannes: I think I guess like you’re probably more relaxed and spaced out and probably end up passing out and not really understanding where you are or what you’re doing. Whereas with alcohol people are just like yeah I can fly, jump off a roof and do something stupid like you know this is the problem or get behind a wheel and they go somewhere because they’re like yeah I feel fine. Whereas I feel like with cannabis you significantly don’t feel fine but you feel relaxed and different. And that’s why there’s a difference I think with alcohol. That’s yeah that’s what I think.

But if you ever did want to conduct an experiment, you know, to have someone drinking wine every night, someone drinking and someone smoking every night, I’m sure you’ll be able to find lots of volunteers who probably participate in that sort of experiment, especially if we’re not. I think that would be pretty popular. You get some data. Like a good idea.

Jonathan McFarlane: Yeah well you come visit in Colorado and you can partake. You can decide which side you want to be on.

Sabrina Chevannes: That sounds good, but I do want to know because obviously we’ve talked about illegal stuff but there’s going to be a massive black market still for cannabis.

Sabrina Chevannes:
Well, I mean, like, yes, it’s legal in lots of places, but obviously it’s not everywhere. How much do you come across, you know, in your job? Are all companies doing stuff on the black market?

Johnathan McFarlane:
Yeah, so more a few years ago than now, and the existence of the black market really is different from state to state.

I mean in Colorado, it’s almost been entirely eliminated. Prices have gone down at dispensaries compared to when things first started opening up—it was very expensive.

So as the prices in dispensaries go down, and not just the prices but the products in dispensaries are also thoroughly tested by third-party labs, those things evolve. There’s not really a whole lot of reason for somebody to go outside of that infrastructure and do something illegal when you can get a tested product legally.

Like, why would you go that route? Why would you do something illegal when you didn’t have to, and the prices are comparable and it’s safer to go legal?

But that’s not the case everywhere. Places like California have a massive black market—far bigger than the legal market, I believe. And it’s because the industry there has been throttled by the state government.

It’s taxed so high that it’s really expensive to go into a dispensary. So if you can buy from someone down the block for, I don’t know, an eighth for $20, then you’re just going to keep doing that instead of going to a dispensary and paying double.

But in most places with established legal markets, over time the black market diminishes. Colorado, Washington, Oregon—states that have been doing it for quite a while—have mostly eliminated it.

Sabrina Chevannes:
But you must get companies pretending to be legit when they’re not, right? Surely there are illegal businesses out there pretending to be legal.

Johnathan McFarlane:
Sure, I’m sure there are, but we don’t get a lot of them coming to us. There have been a couple of instances where we were like, “this doesn’t sound quite right.”

For example, once we were talking to a Mexican national trying to set up a business. One of the questions was about crime and cartels in Mexico.

He said it’s really just like paying taxes—you just pay the fees, operate like a normal business.

And we were kind of like… maybe this isn’t a good fit for us. We wish you well, but we’re not interested in being involved in a business that needs to pay cartels.

That’s not really our specialty.

Sabrina Chevannes:
I still need to watch Ozark. I think I’m behind a couple seasons now.

Johnathan McFarlane:
Yeah, it’s funny how it starts out innocent and ends up with cartel involvement.

Same with Good Girls too. It’s like all these shows start normal and suddenly it’s crime and cartels.

Sabrina Chevannes:
But how easy is it to set up a dispensary in the US? If someone wanted to go legit, like a local dealer turning into a real business—how easy is that?

Johnathan McFarlane:
It depends a lot state to state. In some places it’s relatively easy and cheap. Oklahoma, for example—license fees were only a few thousand dollars and there was no cap on licenses.

So you’re mostly just paying for the business setup and operations.

But in tighter, newer markets, you might spend hundreds of thousands before you even build or rent a space.

So it varies a lot.

The dispensary business is challenging. Once it becomes normal and saturated, it’s just retail. You’re competing for customers and trying to build loyalty.

It’s not a “set it and forget it” business. A lot of dispensaries fail or get bought out.

It’s becoming more like the alcohol industry over time.

Sabrina Chevannes:
So as a marketing agency for cannabis companies, what direction do you usually go? Medical or social?

Johnathan McFarlane:
Almost never medical. We actually avoid medical claims. We’ve even taken medical-focused businesses and repositioned them for recreational markets.

Because in medical cannabis, you get into risky territory—claims about treating conditions like glaucoma or stomach issues. You can’t really say that.

So in recreational marketing, it’s more flexible.

Common channels are email and SMS marketing—those are huge. Also online ordering and delivery in some states like California.

And branding is very important. It’s not just “we sell cannabis,” it’s about experience—how people feel when they walk into the store, packaging, design, tone.

You’re selling experience, not just a product.

Sabrina Chevannes:
I’m imagining Colorado like the most chill state ever—everyone’s always getting high, there are dispensaries everywhere, and people are just growing their own stuff in their gardens like South Park.

Is that actually a thing? Can people grow their own weed?

Johnathan McFarlane:
Yeah, you can grow your own in Colorado. There are limits on how many plants per person, and it’s for personal use—not for selling.

Once you start selling, that becomes illegal.

So if you’re just growing for yourself, you’re fine.

Sabrina Chevannes:
And what about CBD? It feels like it became such a trend in the UK. Do those products actually work or is it more of a gimmick?

Johnathan McFarlane:
The CBD industry is very saturated and competitive.

In terms of effectiveness, it varies a lot from person to person. Some people use it for sleep and say it works well, others feel no effect.

There is real medical evidence in certain cases though—there are FDA-approved CBD-based medications for epilepsy, for example.

So there is something to it. But overall, what it’s useful for, and what dosages actually work, is still being studied.

A lot of it is also trend-driven. Branding is strong, packaging is attractive, and it became very popular very quickly.

Sabrina Chevannes:
It really feels like a trend in places like London. There are CBD shops everywhere.

Johnathan McFarlane:
Yeah, exactly. It’s very trendy in certain areas, especially urban, creative spaces.

Sabrina Chevannes:
What do you think about cannabis compared to alcohol? A lot of people say cannabis is safer.

Johnathan McFarlane:
Alcohol causes far more harm statistically in terms of deaths and health issues.

Cannabis is generally considered less physically addictive, though psychological dependence can still happen.

There are no recorded fatal overdoses from cannabis alone, unlike alcohol.

But it still comes down to responsible use. Edibles especially can be very strong if people take too much.

And alcohol tends to lead to more dangerous behavior—accidents, risky decisions, and so on.

Sabrina Chevannes:
So you think people are shifting from alcohol to cannabis?

Johnathan McFarlane:
Yes, in many cases people are substituting alcohol with cannabis in moderation.

Sabrina Chevannes:
And the black market—does it still exist much?

Johnathan McFarlane:
Yes, but it depends on the state.

In Colorado, it’s been mostly eliminated because legal prices are competitive and products are tested.

In California, the black market is still huge because taxes are high and legal products are expensive.

So people just buy cheaper illegal products instead.

Sabrina Chevannes:
So overall, what’s your view of the industry?

Johnathan McFarlane:
I really believe it can be a force for good.

A lot of companies in the cannabis space are tied to social causes—sustainability, community work, giving back.

There’s still stigma, so brands work hard to show they’re responsible and positive contributors.

And I think that will continue as the industry matures.

Johnathan McFarlane:
And they look back on this time, I think it’ll be really cool for her to say, “Wow, my dad, he was part of that.”

Sabrina Chevannes: That’s such a nice thing to land on. I feel like that’s such a sweet thing to say. But I guess I want to ask you where people can find you and where people can get in touch, because I’ll probably have loads of questions about this—or you’ll get people asking if they can get a discount for them.

Johnathan McFarlane:
Sure. Well, tell you what—open invitation. Anybody listening to the podcast is in Colorado, you can get in touch with me. I will hook you up with a discount. We can do that for you.

Sabrina Chevannes:
That is a big, big offer. I’m going to have people lining up at your door.

Johnathan McFarlane:
No problem. Bring the party.

Yeah, but in terms of personally, I love talking shop. So if anybody wants to, my email is [jonathan@hybridmarketingco.com](mailto:jonathan@hybridmarketingco.com) and that’s J-O-N-A-T-H-A-N.

Or just hybridmarketingco.com, or on LinkedIn of course—Johnathan McFarlane. I’m sure I’ll pop up.

Sabrina Chevannes:
Perfect. I’ll pop all those things in the show notes and everyone can link to stuff. It’s been such a fascinating conversation hearing a lot about this. Yeah, this has been fun.

Johnathan McFarlane:
Thank you so much.

Sabrina Chevannes:
Thank you so much for coming on the show, and thanks everyone for listening. I’ll be back next week for another episode of No Bullshit Talk.