Fighting The Gender Gap In Business

Sabrina Chevannes-Denman: Hi everyone and welcome to this week’s episode of No Bullsh*t Talks.
I am so pleased to be joined here by Kim Hayden, who is the founder and producer of the Resilience Series.
Kim, welcome to the show today.
Kim Hayden: Hello.
Hello.
Good morning, good afternoon, good evening.
I’m so excited to be here.
Thank you.
Sabrina Chevannes-Denman: So we talked about that, you’re the founder of Resilience series.
Obviously, do you want to start out by telling us what exactly that is and what you guys do?
Awesome.
Awesome.
I would love to.
So, the Resilience Series is a series.

Kim Hayden: We are a media platform of products that are spoken through a resilient lens or frame.
So, what we do is we find practitioners, coaches, speakers, and people who, in this new digital world, need authority assets.
You need stuff that people can track and trace.
You just putting out a blog like everybody else — you know, blogs.
What is the entry level of a blog?
What is the entry level of a pay phone video on YouTube?
Not very high.
Everybody can do that.
If I’m going to invest money with you, I want to be able to see who you are, you know, how you represent yourself, right?
So what we do is we actually have a series where we take people from television documentary style.
So six to eight minutes, like Goalcast.
I don’t know if anybody out there watches Goalcast, it’s G-O-A-L-C-A-S-T.
So one of the pre-emptive YouTube spaces for these still short kind of audio documentary video documentaries, and they would rip apart the stars and do all sorts of weird stuff, but in that kind of format.
With our map, we can actually create kind of like speaker reels or business reels, but these really in-depth stories of who you are, what you do, and why you do it.
We take that message.
We move that message into one of our books.
So you become a recognized published author on Amazon Author Central, which is like three percent of North Americans.
Then we move you into speaking on a stage, and then we move you into the podcast.
Understanding how to get guests and opportunities are broadcast, and also through a template in all of these, you have assets and embeds for your website.
So when you go and say, “Hey, I want you to spend your money with me. I’m really good at coaching people in mind and body health,” now you have all the authority assets to back you up.
So we tell stories.
That’s what I do.
I love telling stories of amazing women.
I work primarily with women.
Sabrina Chevannes-Denman: What kind of women do you have working with you at the moment?
Who do you normally attract?
Kim Hayden: Well, we just did our Resilient Women in Real Estate.
We’ll be doing another one in that because that one hit number one in several countries.
We’re currently looking at anybody in the relationship industry, or anybody that services women or supports women.
Coaches, women who have come through some sort of domestic or personal relationship breakdown.
So we’re calling it Life After Divorce.
We have released the Kindle version with just featuring a couple of our authors.
So it is online for Kindle, and it did hit number four without any promotions or anything in the UK.
So yes, we do work with that.
We work with a UK production house.
I do not edit and produce your books.
I actually am associated with a full-blown production house that is affiliated in 32 countries.
So it’s really important that you know what you can do and what you cannot do.
I can do video, I can do those types of things.
I’m not an editor per se, so you don’t want me editing anymore.
Nothing will be spelled right, I promise.
Sabrina Chevannes-Denman: So the life after…

Kim Hayden: Divorce.
Then we have our Resilient Women in Business.
That was really important to me because Resilient Women in Business — a lot of these women are wanting to move into the speaking realm and the paid speaking arena.
And we actually see a true disparity in the speaking arena.
Women do get paid significantly less, and there are quite a few less women on the stages.
So when you look, for example, like them, love them, or leave them — Grant Cardone puts on these big events, these huge events, and he’s got a lot of powerful statements, a lot of good information in there.
He talks about how by investing ten thousand dollars, your goal is that within a 12-month time frame, you should be able to generate a hundred thousand dollars off that investment if done right.
Those types of things I totally agree with.
However, I think he had 18 people on his three-day stage.
Three were women, and one he was sleeping with.
That was his wife.
And I said, “Here we go. Okay.”
Sabrina Chevannes-Denman: Serves it.
Yeah.
It was not about that, but it does make somebody laugh.
Kim Hayden: So, did you like how I put that?
I mean, yeah, you’re good.
Sabrina Chevannes-Denman: Why is it, to be honest? Look at this…

Kim Hayden: The disparity of this recognition — and part of that goes to more men will spend or invest their money with male coaches, leaders, mentors, and speakers than women will.
So I really got this kind of bug on my butt that I’m tired of seeing women with amazing messages, A, not getting paid, and B, not getting the recognition.
And part of that is women’s top three complaints, top three issues for them investing money.
“I don’t have any money.”
Well, you know what?
If you don’t invest money, you will never have any money.
Statistically, if you’re not investing 7% of what you want to make, you will never get to where you want to make it.
So if you’re not investing — and that’s in marketing and assets — so if you want to make 100K, if you don’t invest seven thousand dollars, you’re never going to make that hundred K.
Period.
These are national statistics globally.
So women say, “I don’t have any money.”
The second one is, “I have to talk to my husband.”
Oh honey, I have been married 27 years.
Call me, I’ll teach you how to get around the husband one.
So, you know, the reality is if your husband is going to say no, it’s either A, you have done this repeatedly and you have failed to launch because you’re not actually going back and creating a business plan, and you have your marketing data today.
You have all these things, right?
You don’t have anything aside from an idea.
And remember, an idea is only a wish without a plan, right?
So it’s not actually going to probably happen.
And then the other one that I hear all the time — so one, “I don’t have any money.”
Two, “I have to ask my husband.”
And three, the third one is, “I tried this.”
Okay.
Well honey, you did not try it cohesively.
We are all guilty of doing this and guilty of spending on this.
We see something, it becomes the shiny object, we do it, and then it doesn’t work.
And this happens over and over and over again.
The problem with this is the cohesiveness in message.
Your message does not bridge all the media platforms, and you have to be everywhere.
You have to be everywhere.
You have to be boots on the ground locally so you’re getting great social stuff for your social media, and you have to be everywhere digitally.
Also, you know, you have to pick your sandbox.
I tried Clubhouse.
I didn’t end up following through with Clubhouse.
It’s not really my jam.
I prefer live streams.
I prefer this type of engagement.
I prefer LinkedIn.
I love LinkedIn.
That’s my jam, but I’m old.
So you know what I should be?
I’m like, I think LinkedIn was designed for us.
But you know, the reality is that you have to be pretty much everywhere.
And if you don’t have a cohesive message all the way through, people will get confused.
And a confused mind never buys.
So that’s what I do.
That’s the Resilient Series.
I basically find out — everybody has like three or four avatars.
“Oh my God, I have three or four ideal clients.”
Give me 11, and we’re going to make the most intense, cohesive, powerful approach so it goes across all platforms.
So you can actually get out there and say, “I am a professional.”
“You can see me here, you can read me there, you can hear me here.”
“This is what I have to offer, and I want to be paid.”
Sabrina Chevannes-Denman: I can’t believe that women are still paid less than men when it comes to speaking.
You just — well, like I think, I mean I know this is a bit of a gender gap with things, but I had no idea that even speaking gigs are still the same thing.
Surely there was such a call at the moment for more female speakers and shares, and stories.
They should be paid more because it’s like, well actually, they’re scarce.
There are so many great male speakers.
You go find out how many great female speakers you find in the same subject.
So I feel in some ways they should be paid more for what they do.
So that is quite surprising, and it’s a shame to hear that as well.

Kim Hayden: It is.
It is because women — what is it?
They did a study on women going in for corporate jobs.
Men will go in if they have something like 40% of the criteria.
Women want 90%.
And so they never apply.
Sabrina Chevannes-Denman: Yeah, exactly.
That is so crazy.
Men will look at the job description and be like, “Ah, I can do that,” and they’ll do it.
Whereas women will be like, “Oh, there’s one little bit about that I can’t do, so therefore I’m not qualified for the job.”
That’s so crazy.
And I see that definitely with VAs and everything.
I see that even when I’ve got client briefs.
I’m like, alright, there’s one little thing on this brief that we don’t do necessarily in-house, but everything else we’re doing, we’re one of the best at it.
So I’ll still apply for the brief.
And you’re crazy if you don’t.
Just get someone in who can do that one thing and then apply for it.
But that’s not how, I guess, a female body works.
Like a woman thinks, “That’s not quite right.”
And I think for me, it’s my ethical point of view, and I want to — it’s a strange thing with that.
And it’s something I’ve got around in my head not to do that sort of thing.
Kim Hayden: Oh, absolutely.
Absolutely.
I’m going to give you a prime example of how to think on your feet and run like hell so you can serve somebody.
If you’re doing something you truly believe in, then it is a disservice to the people around you that could benefit from your genius.
You are being selfish if you’re holding your cards to your chest and you’re not looking for solutions.
So if you’re really good at something and you’re not doing what you need to do in order to be of service to the people who could benefit, grow, generate more money, whatever they need, then shame on you.
I’m just going to put that out there.
Shame on you if you are not thinking on your feet and doing what you need to do in order to be of service and share your zone of genius with people and also get paid so you can continue servicing and sharing.
Shame on you.
You’re really only doing a half job.
I’m going to use the ass word here.
You need to get serious.
I had a call the other day.
I met this really great gal who’s been in business, been in real estate for 10 years, and she’s built a pretty solid foundation.
But now she needs to go next level.
And because if your business is not growing, what is it doing, folks?
Sabrina Chevannes-Denman: It is dying, right?
Kim Hayden: Right.
So she needs to go next level.
And so she starts sharing things with me.
She’s never done a brand consult.
She’s never done any of this.
I say, “You know what? I know I can be of service.”
I’ve got great contacts and connections, and in fact, I have one gal that I personally know.
She actually worked with me over the last 15 years as she built a million-dollar brand for me, and I can prove this to you.
And how would you feel about connecting with her?
I would work with her to collaborate to get your more cohesive message put together, your brand done, and everything so you can go next level.
What do you want to make next year?
What do you want to increase your revenue to?
I know I can find the solutions for you.
So I get on the phone.
I don’t do brand strategy.
I don’t know why colors connect.
Everything I’ve done has been curated.
So I call the person that curated myself and said, “Hey, you want to collab on this?”
This gal has no proper branding.
She has no real big thing that if she was really worked with, I think she could literally grab this one market by the throat basically and just hold on to it.
And seize an opportunity because I think she’s in the right spot.
I got that feeling.
Sure enough, everything is coming together and meeting.
And this is a gal that, you know what, I think she could make differences if she’s given the money to make differences.
So she needs people to guide her on the strategies to start with.
It’s like you with media, right?
You see what people do wrong all the time.
How do you get them to listen to you, right?
You see through interviewing businesses and talking to people, you get this kind of bird’s-eye view.
And I find a lot of women — we’re so used to only having space for three people on the stage that we push other women off versus a group of us pushing the dudes off.
It’s like, “Okay everybody, heave ho, mateys. Let’s do this.”
We’re so threatened by each other that we don’t stop and realize what messages we’re leaving for our daughters.

Sabrina Chevannes-Denman: It’s very strange that that’s still a thing.
I feel like that was what it was growing up.
I wish that it would change, you know, because it’s always been that way.
The men will support each other.
They’ll just be like lads together, they get on, and that’s it.
But women seem to see everyone else as cutthroat.
Kim Hayden: Women always be bitchy.
Sabrina Chevannes-Denman: Like it’s just like a —
Kim Hayden: I don’t get what it is.
Sabrina Chevannes-Denman: Whereas, you know, if they supported each other, they’d be able to do so much better.
And I’m not saying that I think that every university needs more women doing talks instead of men.
I think always it should be the right people for the job.
But, you know, there are so many different topics where if a woman was speaking about it, other women would be able to relate to it a lot more than a man who’s saying that same thing.
Because there are certain things in life or business that we do that I just think a man’s never going to understand, or men approach that so differently.
Or they can get away with behavior that women would never ever be able to do.
And while they may be able to empathize, they don’t actually get it.
So if a woman got up on stage and said those same sort of things and explained their stories, I’d relate to them in a totally different way.
I think that’s really important.
So it’s about your audience.
And I think this is why diversity is so important — not just gender, but also race, also sexuality, all that kind of stuff.
So, you know, it’s not the same for a straight white male as it is for people put together the opposite way.
Totally.
And, you know, they would have totally different things.
Or, you know, even like a gay man, same sort of thing.
Like a gay white man versus a straight white man gets treated very differently in life depending on where you go as well, in certain industries.
Okay, in the creative world, I think there’s a lot more acceptance, but in the corporate world, I’m sure that — you know, take a look at Apple.
Take a look at Apple.
What’s his name?
Who’s the guy who runs Apple now?
Kim Hayden: He’s been given —
Sabrina Chevannes-Denman: The guy that’s got his name, Tim Cook.
Did you just watch the Apple — they just had the Apple release?
I watched it.
Wasn’t it just a couple days ago?
Yeah, I know, they revealed the new phones and iPads.
And you should see the new colors they’re coming out with.
They’re great.
But I mean, he —
Kim Hayden: He was given a ton of grief, and his sexuality was brought into question.
It’s like —
Sabrina Chevannes-Denman: Why?
Yes, why? Why?
So I really didn’t think about his sexuality.
Kim Hayden: I think when we look at media — but on this note, what I do think is interesting and what I’d like to challenge people with is, you know, we’re talking about pronouns, he, she, whatever.
I choose to go by queen.
That’s Queen of Resilience.
You all can call me Queen Kim.
Sabrina Chevannes-Denman: Sorry, that’s a comedy show later.
Kim Hayden: But what if we applied that to adjectives, right?
As opposed to, “She’s being aggressive.”
Maybe she’s assertive.
Wait, dudes we call assertive.
We don’t call them aggressive.
We call her aggressive, him assertive.
Why do we pigeonhole?
Why do we pigeonhole people’s behaviors to fit what we built as a 1950s profile for proper behaviors for women?
So, and I do think that has part of it.
I mean, it’s a very fine balance when you’re dealing with a million-dollar company.
It’s a very fine balance of me saying, “No, the deadline is this.”
“I cannot shift deadlines that have been applied for an overall project for one person.”
“Either you meet it or you don’t.”
And to some, that sounds bitchy.
You know, and that’s not fair.

Sabrina Chevannes-Denman: I literally just posted this on LinkedIn.
I literally just posted this because I have a hoodie, which I took off because it’s a bit warm, but it says “boss” on it.
And it’s a Hugo Boss hoodie, and it says boss.
And I was saying that I always like to say, “I’m not bossy, I’m the boss.”
That’s what I had to say.
And that’s the same thing.
I had it three times last week, and I got annoyed with people saying, “Oh yeah, you’re going to come across bossy now.”
That’s just — you said bossy.
And I’m like, “I’m not even being bossy.”
I’m just saying, “You’ve got a deadline, you’re missing your deadline, can you explain to me why you’re missing the deadline?”
And they’re like, “No, I was just waiting for clarification or something.”
I’m like, you know, if you’re waiting for clarification on something, chase it up, but you could do all the other stuff around it.
Don’t just wait in the middle of a project.
You could do everything else first.
And if you’re going to miss the deadline, let us know in advance as soon as you think you’re going to.
That’s us.
We communicate at a higher caliber.
So bossy?
I mean, it’s not being bossy.
I am your boss, and this is what needs to be done, and these are the processes.
These are important goals.
Kim Hayden: Lots of people don’t understand this.
Sabrina Chevannes-Denman: And they just sort of say, “Oh, because she’s bossy.”
But if a man did that all day long or forwards, you know, he shows command.
And it doesn’t make any sense.
Why is it the same thing when you said the whole aggression versus — you know, it’s just the same sort of thing.
I just don’t understand why this is still a gender divide.
Kim Hayden: Well, and I think then you have a whole other layer on top of that because then you have almost that silo effect.
We women who are in leadership end up in almost a silo effect because it’s hard to explain the challenges around that, you know.
Sabrina Chevannes-Denman: And you know what?
I’m not saying that men don’t have challenges.
Kim Hayden: My husband is part of a group called the K Foreman Group, and it’s a really cool men’s group.
It’s all online, and it’s really about exploring and making the connectivity they need to make in order to have healthy relationships, not only with themselves but with those around them.
And it’s interesting because if we took that same approach for women in business, if they had a healthier connection with their business boss inside, right, would they ask for the money?
So let me ask you this.
Statistically, what do you think the average female coach or business coach makes in North America?
Sabrina Chevannes-Denman: USD?
Kim Hayden: One hundred forty-six thousand a year.
What?
Yep.
The average female in North America makes just under twenty dollars an hour.
That’s the average.
Sabrina Chevannes-Denman: The average is —
Kim Hayden: I love stats.
I love that.
And I sit here and go, “What is wrong with this picture?”
Right?
And then you look at it and go, “Why? Why?”
So when you look at it, are they investing that 7%?
Are they going for it?
And a lot of them, I just find, don’t invest in their business the right way.
You know, they sit there and they get frustrated, and we’re all trying to fight in the Instagram sandbox.
We’re all trying to gain awareness.
Things are growing louder and prouder.
But, you know, at the end of the day, what is their messaging?
What is their market approach?
What are they doing right?
So all of this is just crazy stuff that I’m looking at.
And just so you know, everybody out there, entrepreneurship for males is not that much higher.
It’s about seven thousand dollars on average higher.
So when we look at entrepreneurs, when we look at people in the coaching industry, we’re looking at this and I want to know who’s making all the money and why it’s not being dispersed a little bit more evenly.
A Forbes article in 2019 posted that the average online revenue production for education, mentorship, coaching, that type of thing, was one hundred seventeen billion dollars.
They predicted by 2025 it would be three hundred fifty billion dollars globally.
So I’m just asking, why shouldn’t everybody have 150K in there?

Sabrina Chevannes-Denman: Well, that’s why the number surprised me because obviously we have a lot of stuff on our feeds.
There’s a lot of bullshit being spread, which is why we should talk about it.
You know, there are people I see on Instagram all the time saying, “Oh, I make seven figures, so therefore I can help you.”
But obviously, some of them might genuinely be making quite a lot of money.
So that’s why I was like, okay, if I picked one twenty and averaged that, you know, those ones are bringing up the average massively, the ones who are running seven figures, and there’s probably a lot making that much.
So I thought that would be what it is.
But 46K seems ridiculous.
Kim Hayden: It is ridiculous.
It is ridiculous.
And I talk to a lot of these women.
They’re good.
They’re smart.
And they’re still trying to figure out how to crack the next level.
What’s the greatest challenge you’re seeing in your field right now with your clients and with people you’re talking to?
Sabrina Chevannes-Denman: The clients — it’s a pattern because I was in a very different industry, so there’s a whole variety of pain points.
Although the common issue that everyone’s having across everyone I ever speak to, it’s tough trying to get good quality staff.
Because I think the pandemic changed people.
People are slightly off now.
We’ve had a massive shift.
I think that people have gotten lazier, people have gotten more entitled, and the quality has gone down and the attitude has gone up.
I’ve noticed everyone’s been saying the same thing.
They’re not finding as good quality people everywhere.
And I think that there’s a consistent pain point around all the staffing issues.
Kim Hayden: Yeah, and I do agree.
I think a lot of people got comfortable not putting pants on during COVID, and not everybody is going to be able to find the motivation to get up out of bed and do work online.
So I myself find that I struggle with staff.
So I would absolutely say that that’s the big one.
And I don’t know if it’s entitlement as opposed to maybe not understanding work ethic, not understanding.
I think we’re in this huge shift because we’re going from the industrial age where everything is manual labor and you’ve got to get in there, right?
And we literally in the last two years have been experiencing a huge shift into the age of knowledge.
We have submitted that this is where we’re at.
Everything’s online.
You’ve got to be able to do this.
And I just wonder if everybody’s been fed this whole passive income crap.

Kim Hayden: There is no such thing as passive income.
Nobody makes money easy.
It ain’t free.
It just doesn’t come to you.
You can have passion income and enjoy working hard, but you know, in real estate, the average real estate agent in North America works 30 hours a week and makes forty-three thousand dollars a year.
Those were the stats last year.
However, those that ended up working 42 hours a week doubled their income, and those that went up to the next level, which was like 55 hours a week, literally tripled from that.
So you’re talking about, are you willing to put the time in?
I find a lot of people just don’t put the time in.
They don’t have consistency.
They’re not following through.
Sabrina Chevannes-Denman: I guess that’s it.
Everyone’s lazy these days a lot.
That’s what we’ve seen, in fact.
And you know, it’s the instant gratification of everything.
Everything is instant now.
And like I said, everyone’s kind of feeling like they should have XYZ.
And social media is posting different things.
And I think the whole work-life balance thing, or too many people talking about how you shouldn’t be working as hard, so everyone’s like, “Maybe I should be lazy too.”
“I should just sit back and expect things to happen to me.”
“And I should be able to post a picture on Instagram and get several hundred thousand pounds for that.”
That’s the sort of attitude we’re seeing at the moment.
So lots of younger people who apply for jobs will say, “Oh yes, I’m a senior developer and I’ve got two years’ experience.”
That’s senior to them.
Like, what?
Kim Hayden: “I’ve watched every YouTube video on it, so therefore I’m senior.”
Sabrina Chevannes-Denman: That’s what they think it can be.
So they don’t get that other people in the industry have been in it 15 to 20 years, and even they are still trying to learn stuff.
It’s a different attitude and approach to it.
I think that’s different from what you just said to me about the real estate agents.
They’re putting in 55-plus work hours a week.
To me, that’s great work ethic.
They should be paid, and they triple the income.
I get that because they’re the ones working hard.
So when everyone else is asleep, they’re the ones able to close those deals.
And that’s why they’re getting opportunities when other people are not working.
However, if you say that to someone — 55 hours a week — this is the culture of encouraging people to be lazy.
So they’ll say, “Oh, that person’s working 55 hours a week. What are they doing? They’re burning themselves out.”
There’s all this negativity around working hard and drive.
And I get it, there’s also that factor, but there’s too much negativity about hard work like it’s a bad thing, a bad concept.
So now everyone’s kind of lazy about it.
I feel like that’s the problem.
Kim Hayden: And there’s understanding what is work.
So when I say 55 hours a week, probably 10 or 15 of that was within volunteerism and the signature events I created to support my brand awareness.
So I love me a good party.
I love a good event.
I don’t know if you can tell, I’m a little out there at times.
But when you get down to brass tacks, that is part of the time away from home, away from family, so forth and so on.
But the reality is like 15 hours of that every week was going into something I thoroughly enjoyed but still continued to build awareness.
I find a lot of people are so stuck within a box, they don’t look at all the other components that can go into building their brand awareness, that can go into benefiting their clients.
So if you take somebody who sells insurance, right?
You’re going to have your eight farm areas.
You’re going to have your geo farm.
This is where you live.
This is your backyard.
These are the people you’re seeing at the grocery store.
You’re going to have your community of interest, right?
So these are the people that maybe you play Dungeons & Dragons with or whatever.
I don’t know, I don’t do that, just so nobody knows.
I only pulled that because I did an article on a group of guys that did Dungeons & Dragons.
Or horticulture or whatever your jam is.
So that’s your other community.
Then you have your community of past education.
You have your community of faith.
You have your social media community.
Everybody’s putting all their eggs into one basket — social media.
And let me tell you, folks, real dollars are still being spent in the real world.
And a lot of people don’t have the soft skill set in order to be able to work in the real space.
They have the online persona down flat and are polished.
They just don’t know how to roll with the punches and move within real space in real time.
So when I talk to people, it’s like, what are you doing with all of these?
How are you nurturing them?
And one of those communities is volunteers.
Twenty-seven percent of North Americans volunteer.
Twenty-nine percent female, twenty-one percent male.
The average is just under twenty-seven percent, and yet it impacts the economy by over 3.1 billion dollars annually.
All that volunteerism.
Sabrina Chevannes-Denman: I want to find out the stats because I feel like it’s way less in the UK.
I don’t really know that many volunteers for anything.
We volunteer up here sometimes in the company, and I’ve been doing it since I was a kid, but that’s because my dad does and my parents do.
That’s where you learn it from.
But I don’t think it’s anywhere near that high in the UK.
I really don’t think as a culture —
Kim Hayden: Well, the UK is also lower than the United States for published authors.
The UK sits at less than 2% for published authors.
Sabrina Chevannes-Denman: Yeah.
I think there’s a belief that it’s not really possible here, although it’s changed now.
There’s a lot of people who are obviously helping other people do that.
But it’s still not seen as an easy thing to do.
And people don’t think of it, and there’s that whole thing.
It’s a very different thing.
But you mentioned real estate quite a lot because you have a career in real estate.
That’s how you started?
Kim Hayden: Well, I’m still licensed and I do coach for real estate agents.
So that’s it.
The only coaching I offer, and I only coach what I call a community expert or my 500-door policy, so I can actually prove and advocate.
I have an agent here locally that’s going through that program and already has three cycles in real estate.
If you don’t have listings, your business is listless.
And that’s not a joke.
It is the truth because your signs in the lawn are your surf rack.
And a lot of agents right now are scrambling for these lead-gen online regents where you put your information in online and you get like 25 different real estate agents calling and harassing you.
I teach people how to go back to the basics within their local community and understand their eight points of contact, their eight community offerings.
But real estate really is — you are the product.
I have no product to hide behind.
I have to have faith in the product I’m offering and belief in the product I’m offering.
And I think that’s a lot of reasons why entrepreneurs fail, because if they’re doing something that’s solely on their shoulders, then they have to have enough conviction in that.
The same as if you went out and started talking about Nike or Adidas, right?
If you go out and start talking about the historical foundation of a product, the quality of a bag, the quality of their watch, all this other stuff.
So there’s all these things, and it’s easy to get behind somebody else’s brand.
But when you are your own brand, that’s really hard.
And I think that’s why there’s an 87% failure rate in real estate in the first 36 months.
Sabrina Chevannes-Denman: That does not surprise me.
It seems so cutthroat as well, and obviously the stakes are so high.
So that’s why a lot of people aren’t going to withstand that pressure.
It’s so similar to the failure rates of startups because a lot of people start their own business thinking about all the good things — the attraction of it, the freedom, the potential income, working anywhere from home, all that kind of stuff.
People hear all the good stuff.
They don’t realize how difficult it is, and the pressure is too much.
And if you’re needing to earn that money and it only goes up high enough to be able to survive and pay your rent or food or whatever, then it’s added pressure.
So I get that.
That’s so much pressure.
I think compared to the UK, it’s very different because real estate like that doesn’t exist in the UK, right?
We have estate agents.
Kim Hayden: Yeah, because the legalities around the industries are so incredibly different.
So in the UK, you can have a domino effect where one property at the beginning of that chain does not close, and then none of them close.
And you don’t know if your property sold until the day somebody shows up with the check and they’re moving.
Whereas Canada is unlike any other market globally.
In seven days flat, you will know if the bank will insure the mortgage.
The mortgage is put in place in seven days.
Even if your possession is not for 90 days, we do everything in seven to ten days in Canada, and it’s done.
It’s set in stone.
And that’s why people pay estate agents here because there are like 32 legal forms now here in the province of Alberta that have to be filled out.
And if you don’t use an estate agent, your lawyer will charge you what you could have paid your real estate agent.
Sabrina Chevannes-Denman: Yeah.
Kim Hayden: Just because there’s huge liability.
But once your home goes firm, in 1,800 real estate transactions, I have only ever had one property not close on the projected close date.
Sabrina Chevannes-Denman: Oh wow.
That’s pretty impressive.
What happened?
Kim Hayden: The home seller.
So what happened was the home buyer’s money was late funding.
It was after 12 noon.
It was late funding, and it was due to an issue at the bank.
The money was there, it just had not been moved around.
And the home seller had decided they did not want to sell, and they executed a breach of contract.
So yeah, honestly, the home seller was a bit of an asshole, but that’s okay.
Sabrina Chevannes-Denman: There’s somebody out there in every field.
Kim Hayden: But I took everything I learned in real estate in 2014 and applied that to our production company, in-house production.
And so we produced over 70 half-hour broadcast television shows.
And this is where I learned.
I was trained by Shaw TV, which is one of the big three telecommunication companies in Canada.
And I worked with one of the — will always be the best producer — my mentor, Jamie Cummings, who unfortunately just passed away this past year.
He was incredible.
Everything he taught me around production and storytelling and how to put it out there.
And I went out and I tried.
Okay, so try this folks — not only sell your product, but sell you as a storyteller in the product.
So I went out and sold these.
Well, Alberta was in the greatest recession it had faced since 1982.
We were losing jobs.
People were foreclosing on houses in 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, and I still managed to go out and raise —
Please God, tell me that’s a mimosa.
Sabrina Chevannes-Denman: Oh, that’s awesome.
Tell me just once, I love a good —
Kim Hayden: Mimosa.

Kim Hayden: So I do find that because I did have the backing of broadcast television, it was easier for me to sell this product.
So I needed to find three hundred thousand dollars inside of eight weeks to fund a TV show in Calgary during a recession about Calgary.
And so we just found a way to really create great ads.
Sabrina Chevannes-Denman: Info commercials, basically.
Kim Hayden: And sold it and got the whole show up and running.
And the thing is, the show is in perpetuity.
It’s still there.
You can still see it, right?
It’s now moving from Shaw TV.
Those shows will be accessible through Telus Optik.
And through our Resilient TV OTT platform.
So if anybody here knows what OTT is — do you know what OTT is?
Sabrina Chevannes-Denman: OTT?
Okay.
That’s a new language.
Kim Hayden: A new language in television production.
So traditional broadcast television with the cord is dying everywhere.
Whereas you still have CNN, ABC, BBC, CBC.
You still have all these networks.
Now where do they get seen?
So Netflix is the original, the OG of OTT.
And OTT is over-the-top.
So these are the way that they’re structured.
It’s not YouTube.
Netflix is not YouTube.
Netflix is by far higher quality.
It doesn’t have the ads popping up, so forth and so on.
So Netflix is kind of the foundation for OTT.
So we’re seeing all these OTT platforms popping up like Amazon Prime Video and Crave and everything.
And you’ll see like Samsung has their own channel.
And on Samsung you can watch CBC and BBC and those types of channels.
You can watch all of those on these OTT platforms along with them being on YouTube.
Now, the thing with OTT platforms is they’re now creating a space for content creators and messaging.
Once you load something on YouTube, you can no longer reload it.
YouTube owns it.
Yeah, if you actually read the fine print, YouTube owns your content.
So the OTT platforms are kind of our next level of broadcast.
And so we’re plugged in here in Canada with our TV too.
We start in June with Telus Optik, and then in November with Roku, which is a US channel.
Samsung, Roku, Apple, Amazon, all the big six, right?
Sabrina Chevannes-Denman: Well, that’s exciting.
Kim Hayden: Thanks.
Yeah, it’s fun because then it allows us that TV platform without having to go out and pitch it and find other options or other channels, right?
We are all built in one house for our Resilient Series or Authority Accelerator products.
Sabrina Chevannes-Denman: Well tell me then, because you’ve been talking about the Resilient Series and everything about what people do.
Because, you know, something that most coaches or most entrepreneurs want to do, because you mainly deal with female entrepreneurs, they really want to create a course.
Because that’s what kind of everyone’s doing.
I don’t even want to say passive income, but it’s definitely — you want to digitize something.
So that’s a way of making money while you sleep, a training.
So everyone wants to do it.
But not everyone can do it, and not everyone necessarily has the right materials at the moment to do it.
But there’s potential.
What advice would you give to people who are thinking, “I need to do a course. This will help my business.”
Like I said, people will look you up and they’ll find you everywhere if you’ve done a course or something, and it’s like you know what you’re doing.
What advice would you give to people who want to try and actually make their way out there and make a course?

Kim Hayden: Oh, making a course is actually a lot easier than most people even think it is.
We overcomplicate this.
You have to decide, first of all, are you edutainment or are you academia?
So you have to determine what field you’re going into, and academia is going to be far harder to create and get accreditation.
It takes years.
Edutainment.
So the average person out there does what’s called fractional reading.
So you only have their undivided attention for about seven seconds, and then after that seven seconds — or seven minutes now, it is the rule of thumb.
No content should be — the reason we’re seeing 10 and 12 minutes on these education videos is because that’s about as long as you can keep anybody.
The reality is that I do believe everybody has something they can teach and share.
And not everything can be your one product.
It cannot be your million-dollar product.
It has to be part of a holistic approach to the challenge this avatar, this ideal client, this right-fit client is facing.
A lot of people won’t have the twenty-five hundred dollars for a retainer for a full-on professional service.
However, they would have $250 teaching them the right questions in order to find the right answers they need in order to move their market to the next level.
So with making a course, it’s super simple.
First thing is determine one avatar.
One.
You’re not making it for everybody.
One avatar.
So if you’re going to teach people how to groom their cats by licking them, that is your one avatar.
Who is that going to be?
That’s going to be a 58-year-old woman.
She probably watches crime TV and has been divorced three times.
So we need to make sure that our content is directly geared towards her, and you need to know that she can find you, that you’ve been published, that you have had your professional video work, that you have spoken on this, and you have all these spaces come together.
While you have a standardized six-module course, five to six modules, modules can’t be any longer than eight minutes.
Just video.
Just video call somebody and say, “Hey, I need to run some content.”
So I helped a gal video her five-module course of how to record your own book for Audible and how to load it, and she’d been wanting to do this for four years.
So well, it’s just video.
It’s not that hard.
Then you just run it through a transcription, then you have your transcription sitting there.
Now you make your two or three applicable downloads.
You pick your platform.
I personally use Kajabi.
If anybody needs, you know, kind of ideas on Kajabi, let me know.
I’m more than happy to support there.
Basically, if you look at the Resilient Series, I built predominantly or have worked with the people who have built a pretty much understand that system.
But there’s Udemy.
There’s Thinkific.
There are all these platforms out there that are specifically designed for that.
And watch ClickFunnels has something coming up here next month.
There’s going to be some big announcements happening around ClickFunnels.
You don’t have to sell everybody.
You just have to find the right few people that fit your niche.
So set your mark.
Do you want to make 110 on a passion project that showcases your zone of genius, where you can help other people out?
Then make it.
Record it.
Go and do your Zoom with a girlfriend with a mimosa.
Record your course.
Make it into six, and make sure you’re speaking to that singular avatar.
That singular avatar.
Like I said, we try to make things way too broad.
It’s that singular avatar.
Who are you speaking to?
And then that’s your direct message all the way through.
You can make more than one product, and you can have more than one avatar.
Yeah, but when you design your course.
So for example, I’m working with a gal who is a clinical psychologist, and she works with people in relationships, and she specializes in sexuality.
And so she’s making a course.
It is for, statistically, a 40-year-old female who has been in a relationship, had a child, gotten divorced.
Now, how does she learn to love herself again?
Embrace her sexuality a decade older.
You know, the one where the Old Mother Hubbard in her cupboard fell out.
But you know, these are real things, right?
How do you go back into the dating world?
So she’s actually doing an entire course to know when you’re ready to date and are you dating the right way for you?
Are you letting go of the shame and the fear and the disappointment in, “I chose wrong last time”?
That fear.
Will I choose right this time?
You know, so that’s a great course.
Six modules, 10 minutes a module.
Author in Life After Divorce, speaker in the summit book.
And then she has her video documentary.
Just all these pieces, and they’re all being loaded into our platform.
So then all she has to do is start working on the social media aspect, finding the right people to help push out for social media and help leverage all of these assets.
Sabrina Chevannes-Denman: I think it’s been incredible.
I think the niche thing is what everyone could sense as a general piece of advice.
And the narrower the target you’re talking to, the better it is.
Same as when we’re doing ads.
If you’ve got a real target that we can tailor your social media ads to, it would be much more effective that way because you’re speaking to the right type of demographic, which is fantastic.
So it’s been brilliant in that sense.
How do you get a good contest going?
Kim Hayden: That’s where I fail, figuring out how to get engagement comments for contests.
Sabrina Chevannes-Denman: Well, what are you doing?
Are you doing a solo brand?
Because we found that what we’re doing a lot of at the moment is where we tee up all our clients with other clients.
So we’re finding clients whose brands have similar target audiences.
That’s the best thing to do.
And you utilize both their target audiences.
So say we have just a partnership and we think that they’ve got similar types of audiences, but by having both of them, the social media content on both of their profiles and utilizing their audiences, they grow cross-brand.
And then, yeah, be able to actively ask them for using the particular — always use a branded hashtag all the time.
That always works.
Get them to submit that sort of stuff.
And then it’s like UGC.
Get the user to submit content based on, you know, with your products.
So if you are doing the mimosas, if you are having a competition to sell mimosas, right?
And they said, “I would win two boxes of champagne,” or something if I wanted to do it.
So I just need to snap a selfie and then put hashtag Mimosa Competition or whatever.
And then that generates so much user-generated content because there are hundreds of people entering this competition with new posts on different platforms, whether it’s Twitter, Instagram, whatever.
Getting to their individual audiences, showcasing your brand and tagging you in it.
You’re just getting free marketing from that way.
And I think that’s the best way to do it.
Kim Hayden: What about the UGC?
So contests are still a good way to grow social media, like your Instagram account?
Sabrina Chevannes-Denman: It is.
Again, the thing is, if you look at the latest stats, there are some ridiculous numbers that are also fake.
So take even the Kylie Jenner account.
Do you realize that the Kylie Jenner account has about 40% of her followers actually bots?
People don’t realize that even with big accounts.
So let alone, like, you know, there were just so many.
Like 45% of Instagram is basically not real.
So it’s very difficult.
And I still think it’s a great way to grow your account, but some people also just follow hashtags like competition, giveaway, freebies.
Some people just follow those and just go on Instagram, don’t really care about the product.
But I guess if they’re making the effort to enter a competition for your brand, they must like that brand.
So it’s still worth doing it because those people still see your products.
They thought it’s worth the effort of entering this competition.
They are still probably your target audience.
So I still think it’s a good way to grow, but it depends.
Kim Hayden: Yeah, I’ve always been.
Yeah.
It’s the organic engagement, and I’m finding that the accounts are going down on comments.
Fewer and fewer comments, right?
Sabrina Chevannes-Denman: Yeah.
Kim Hayden: Mel Robbins.
Even Mel Robbins has, you know, like she’s huge, and you go in, she’ll only have like 370 comments on some of them.
Like, how is that possible?
Everything this woman speaks is a gem, right?
And you know, yeah, I just found it very interesting.
The growth in social media, one of the things that I’ve seen as of late is people are no longer asking me for my social media numbers.
They’re asking me for my mailing list numbers.
Sabrina Chevannes-Denman: Yeah.
So that’s the last one.
Email marketing is still way more powerful in some ways.
The conversion rates still seem to be much higher than social media.
A lot of brands are saying the same things.
We’ve seen the numbers saying the same things too.
It’s still an extremely powerful marketing tool.
Kim Hayden: Yeah, it hasn’t been easy.
What’s your top three favorite CRM platforms?
Because I’m right now shopping new CRMs.
We’ve outgrown our existing one.
Sabrina Chevannes-Denman: Again, depending on what you want to do with it.
So most of our clients use HubSpot because of the fact that we are HubSpot partners too, and it’s a whole integrated service.
However, it gets pricey.
So if you’re using them for sales and using them for marketing and the whole shebang, it’s very pricey.
Yeah.
But it is really great.
And if — that’s what Cardone uses, HubSpot.
Kim Hayden: HubSpot.
And I was looking into it.
It was about 3K a month US for the level of what we use.
Sabrina Chevannes-Denman: Exactly.
So that’s already like the standard, basic standard something.
So it’s quite a lot of money if you’re just starting out.
But there is a free HubSpot.
Actually, there’s a completely free one.
So I would recommend that to people to start with.
Kim Hayden: Pipedrive is another good one that I think we would like to use for sales.
Sabrina Chevannes-Denman: Okay.
So again, depending on the level you’re at, HubSpot is the big one.
But if you’re just starting out, if you want to integrate email marketing with a CRM, then Mailchimp is actually brilliant in that sense because the way that it works can be used to see.
It’s just great.
And Mailchimp has all the great features that you need when you’re first starting out with email marketing campaigns.
Companies grow out of it very quickly, don’t get me wrong.
I’m not saying some people are at the top, and it’s a great place to start because it’s so cost-effective at the beginning.
As you start to build your mailing list and you start to get quite a lot of people, it does become expensive.
When you’re just starting out, it’s fantastic.
And I would definitely recommend Mailchimp.
Kim Hayden: Mailchimp has been around forever.
Sabrina Chevannes-Denman: Exactly.
And they know what they’re doing.
They know what’s good, and they bring brand.
And it’s not just the email.
So with Mailchimp, you get landing pages.
The templates and stuff that you can do are great for people who don’t have the coding skills or do something with a drag-and-drop builder.
But it’s also great for someone like us who are hand-coding stuff.
And so we can actually upload custom stuff too, which is also really useful.
So yeah.
Kim Hayden: Very cool.
Very fun.
Yeah, no, that’s awesome.
I never even heard of Pipedrive before.
Sabrina Chevannes-Denman: That’s more sales.
The one I would say is definitely more salesy.
So for the other two, they’re a bit more holistic in terms of a marketing perspective as well.
But it’s Pipedrive.
Kim Hayden: Yeah, very cool.
Very cool.
It’s all about growth, and it’s having these types of conversations with people, and just getting the inside of what’s going on.
Can you tell I just turned into the interviewer?
Sabrina Chevannes-Denman: Sorry, I do this all the time.
I did and I started thinking we should be great.
But yeah.
Where can people get in touch with you?
Where would our listeners who are listening thinking, “Right, I need to get in touch with Kim. I need to know more.”
Where’s the best place to get in touch with you?
Kim Hayden: Absolutely, it is ResilientSeries.com, the website.
I have a free gift for everybody.
You go over to ResilientGifts.com.
That will drop you into a portal that will give you free six-month access to the whole backend of any of the videos we’re creating.
If we have any masterminds, you can come to those for free.
Like I said, you can access everything for free, including our monthly magazine, just showcasing the amazing women and their stories and how they’re moving forward.
I’d love to actually have an article from you, Sabrina.
You’d make a great addition.
But yeah, so I’m easy to find, and I’m [hello@resilientseries.com](mailto:hello@resilientseries.com), and it’s Resilient Series on Instagram.
Pretty much you can either look at Kim Hayden, and I’m the crazy redhead, not the hot redhead from Ireland that’s a singer.
There’s two of us out there.
I know many of you may mistake me for the hot redhead, but no, no, she’s 30 years my junior.
But yeah, so I’m easy to find.
Kim Hayden on LinkedIn, Instagram, all those, or Resilient Series.
Sabrina Chevannes-Denman: Perfect.
I’m going to pull that into the show notes so she could be gifts and everything like that, and people can get in touch with you.
So thank you so much.
It’s been brilliant today, and yeah, I can’t wait to hear more about all the courses and hear more about what success people have when they come work with you.
So thank you so much for today.
Kim Hayden: Absolutely, Sabrina.
I’m looking forward to it.
Sabrina Chevannes-Denman: Thanks everyone for tuning in today.
And if you enjoyed the show, then please remember to hit that like button or subscribe, and just support us.
It means a lot to us.
Thank you so much, and I’ll see you guys next week.