Now Magazine was the one of the worst experiences in my journalism career and I remember at the time the PA at Now he was a guy and he treated me like crap and I remember one day he turned to me said if it doesn’t work out you know you can always work at Starbucks and I was just I can never forget that moment and I remember I just said I’m going to leave at that comment I was just like I’m just going to leave I’m just not going to I’m not going to do this anymore and I went back to an internship got another uh publication I was working for and they was like get back.

No Bullshit Talks is a podcast for entrepreneurs by entrepreneurs there’s too much bullshit out there especially when it comes to business this podcast aims to highlight what’s true and what’s not in the world of Entrepreneurship bringing you honest and raw conversations about the roller coaster that is entrepreneurship.

Each week my guest will be a high performing entrepreneur sharing the ups and downs of their journey and helping you prepare for the road ahead while providing you with actionable insights and absolute gems of knowledge.

Stay tuned as I introduce this week’s guest.

Toby Oredein is an award-winning women’s lifestyle journalist, media entrepreneur and international public speaker. She’s the founder of Black Ballad, which is a media membership platform for and by Black women in the UK. She’s a TEDx speaker and a huge advocate for Black women in the UK, even managing to put 56 women on a billboard all around the UK this year in partnership with Google. I present to you this week’s guest, Toby.

So welcome Tobi to No More Bullshit Talks.

Thank you for having me.

I love the set, I love the neon pink.

Thank you.

Love it.

I say it’s very me, but I’m not wearing pink today, I’m wearing green. I did actually put this shirt on thinking, hmm, that doesn’t go really well with pink and should I think this through, but then I thought, oh f*** ’em, I’m in green today.

No, you look great.

Great, thank you. So I would love for you to introduce yourself because I feel like that’s a good way of doing it and letting people know what you do.

Hey, so my name is Tobi Oredein and I am the founder of Black Ballad.

Black Ballad is a media membership platform, uh, for and by Black women in Britain and beyond.

Don’t know why I had a blank then. I was like super like, what do I do? Um, but yeah, as I said, yeah, Black Ballad is a media membership platform formed by Black women in Britain and beyond.

So do you know what, I think when you describe it like that you’re underplaying how incredible what you do is, because it’s so hard. Like you said, you’re like, what do I do? And it’s hard to describe it to people and obviously that is literally what you do, yeah, but Black Ballad is, I would say, more like a movement.

Oh okay, that’s very complimentary, thank you. I’ll take that.

Do you think it’s—

I think it is. I think it’s like it’s such an incredible thing that obviously so many people resonate with and want to get behind. So, and whilst it is a membership platform and that’s what you guys do, tell people why you started Black Ballad. I think that will then bring out exactly what it’s about.

I always say in complete honesty it was both selfish desire and wanting to really give Black women what they deserved in the media. So taking it back, my profession is I’m a journalist, so I’ve worked and written for like all the major lifestyle platforms and publications such as Stylist, Elle, Grazia. My last job before I went full-time on Black Ballad was actually on the writer desk at the BBC and I was always looking at the intersection of race, feminism, I called it beauty, politics, pop culture.

And when I was in these offices Black women were really invisible and if we were visible it was a particular type of Black woman and you know we’re Black women, we look very different. And I will say the Black woman that was visible in magazines, it just didn’t look anything like me. So I was like, what, why, why is that happening?

And then when you add in, um, at the time, City University had the statistic that only I think it’s 0.2% of journalists are Black and when you think about, you know, I don’t want to say the heart of journalism, but you know journalism really revolves around London, let’s be honest, and we made up, we made up 3%— Black people made 3% of the population in London at the time, 13.3%, sorry, 3% of the UK. I just felt those statistics were awful and it explained a lot of why Black women and Black communities are described in certain ways.

So I think, you know, applying for jobs or not getting jobs, I was like okay, well if we’re looking at this stat, well it’s no wonder I’m not getting a job because they’re always looking for people like me and the offices, the numbers show that and the experiences I had and some of the offices were very reflective of that.

And then if you look at statistics on I guess the reader side, well we’re not going to be represented accurately or fairly because we’re just not in the office to even have those discussions and to inform and influence opinions. So I said it was both selfish desire of wanting a job and I’m just, you know, I feel like writing, it was my passion then, if I’m honest, I say was, and then just wanting to see Black women represented fairly both kind of came together and I was just like I had enough.

I just said, you know what, I’m going to give myself a job. I just am not going to keep asking, going to be honest, why people should give me a job. I’m just not going to ask for permission to represent myself in these publications.

And you know, I also would think it’s important to say, you know, timing is really important because when I started Black Ballad, you know, the internet kind of, you know, it lowered the barrier to entry. I didn’t have to have a lot of money to start a publication. It wasn’t like I had to have thousands of pounds to start a publication. I’m not from money, I’m from a working-class background and so I wouldn’t have been able to have had, you know, like sort of financial family support in that way.

So definitely that’s how it started. Those were the passions and reasons and I think it’s really important to say that I think I’m a really sort of lucky benefactor of timing.

Yeah, I think, well I think a lot of people are. If you think about all the most successful businesses, a lot of it has to do with timing and people don’t realize that and they put it all down to the founders or whatever, but it’s a lot of it is timing. So it’s fair enough that you recognize that.

But I think so much of what you said really resonated about like, you know, don’t try and wait for a seat at the table, create your own. You know, like that’s it. And it’s like, and I just think you’ve just done that, which is brilliant.

But it’s also making me think now, because you know as we’re recording this, and I appreciate it’s going to come out in a couple of weeks, but as we’re recording this we’re still very much in the middle of the Euros…

And yes, I cannot stand— like I’m a huge football fan, like I’ve been a die-hard football fan. Who do you support?

I support Liverpool.

Oh interesting.

Yeah, see but I’ve been like that since I was four years old and I’m like really, really, really passionate about football all year round. I get really upset when I support England, like I find it really hard because, you know, I think it started back when I would have been at the 2004 World Cup.

Okay.

Where Heskey missed—

Messed up.

And I was on the way home from the pub and I got beaten the crap out of in the middle of a car park at the train station.

Rick, Jesus.

And they were just throwing the P-word around and saying, “You guys screw up everything for our country,” and that was the first time I kind of understood. Like I didn’t really understand it at the time and, you know, like it put me off being an England fan.

Yeah.

And it’s funny, like whereas I’m born and bred here so I am English and I don’t see myself as— I see myself as Black obviously, but I have multicultural heritage, but I’m so English because I was born and raised here, so what else am I supposed to be? But because I look this way I find it really hard.

And at the moment now we’ve got the same situation and I actually think I just sent a tweet just before we came here and I was saying that, you know, in Euro ’96 and 2018 our Black kids missed penalties and the world turned really racist against them and they went home and scored all the penalties and now they’re being called arrogant and like it’s just like they can’t win.

And I just think like there’s something about England football that brings out all the disgusting hate and like vitriol and I just, it really makes me sad.

And then the journalism is what makes me think of it because the way the papers spin stuff is just so vile and quite clear racist. But then if you say it’s racist then you get accused of having a chip on your shoulder and bringing up race, and then if you don’t bring it up and then, you know, someone else said something positive about the Black kids and they’re like, “Why are you making it about race?” and I’m like, you can’t win.

Like what do you do? And it’s like I’m infuriated here and I just sit there and go, what is anyone supposed to do in those situations? And you have been living in that bubble, that’s what you did as a job and no wonder it took you to go create your own thing. But how bad was it inside journalist circles like this? Like you said, I just think the representation is awful.

So I think one of the experiences— I’ll actually, you know what, it’s been long enough. I think I’ve never said the publication. I had an internship at Now. I don’t know if anyone remembers Now.

Yeah, of course.

And I remember when Whitney Houston died and they were creating like, they did like souvenir sort of like spin-off magazines that’s paying tribute to her. And I and another woman are the only black woman in the office, and she’s like a contractor, she’s coming in and out, so I’m the only black person in office and I am an intern, effectively. And it’s funny because I can actually hear the conversation in my head now.

It’s been years ago, right?

Yeah, ’cause I’m 34 now, turning 35.

And they had put together this issue and they had printed a child’s photo of Whitney Houston, but it was Oprah Winfrey. And I saw it immediately. I was like, that’s Oprah Winfrey. And I remember maybe like, do you know what, part of me is like, as in should I just maybe not say anything? But I’m like, no. So I was like to someone, “Oh, by the way, you do know that’s Oprah Winfrey, right? That’s not Whitney Houston.”

And they was like, “What?” And I was like, “Yeah.” And you know, these are all white women. I even remember the names of the women. I actually remember the names of the women. And I remember the first woman was like, “I don’t know who she thinks she is. Yeah, I don’t know who she thinks she is. Oh, it’s effing been printed now, so what would you want us to do? I don’t know who she thinks she is.”

And I can see their faces, and I remember at the time feeling so hot, and I felt like I’d done something really wrong. And I was about 21. I was about 21, and I remember feeling really, really hot and like, oh my God. And they were, the whole desk of women were talking about me and like they just didn’t. I remember, and you have to think that probably the youngest person on that desk probably was about 25, 26, and the two women that were really going at it, they would have been in their late thirties at least.

And I will say that Now Magazine was one of the worst experiences in my journalism career. And I remember at the time, the PA at Now, he was a guy and he treated me like crap. And I remember one day he turned to me and said, “If it doesn’t work out, you know you can always work at Starbucks.” And I was just— I can never forget that moment. And I remember I just said, “I’m going to leave.” At that comment, I was just like, I’m just going to leave. I’m not going to do this anymore.

And I went back to an internship at another publication I was working for, and they was like, “Yeah, come back.” And that wasn’t— that was a local experience. That publication, I had some really— I learned a lot there. But I’d definitely say Now Magazine was when I first experienced microaggressions as a black woman. That was when I first experienced them.

So yeah, I’ve been in it. I’ve experienced it. And I think the one thing about journalism is people, especially what keeps the racism going around in journalism, is that journalists always say, “You know, don’t— you know, it’s a small circle, so you know, don’t say too much because you might get a job.”

Well, no one gave me a job, so like what the hell does it matter to me? Do you know what I mean? Not one person gave me a job, so this isn’t going to matter. But yeah, I’d say Now Magazine was the nastiest place that I worked at, 100%.

It’s crazy, those memories that really stick with you. And people don’t realize how their words form you and actually change what you—

And as I say, the two women that were really talking about me and going at it, I remember their full names to this day. I remember their full names. I know what they look like. And it’s like, especially ’cause it’s your— when you’re first going into journalism, and maybe it’s just a human thing, you do remember the bad things.

You do.

You do.

So when I see all these things, I can imagine what’s being said in those rooms and I always think, ah, I really feel sorry for the black kid that’s probably an intern there. Because if we feel bad reading it, I can tell you now it is a million times worse being in the room.

So what are we supposed to do about it? Because I read these publications and like, even ever since I was a kid, even I noticed it. Like reading the paper and a crime would happen and if it was a black person involved they’d be like, this black person did this crime, but then if it wasn’t a black person they’d be like this person did a crime and the race wouldn’t even be mentioned.

Yeah.

It’d only be mentioned if they were black.

Yeah.

And I’m like that’s ridiculous. Like even I as a child and I was like why do they do that? And I just think like I don’t understand who officiates this or who, like, you know, agrees that this is okay to do. Like what, why is this allowed and how does a publication process work in terms of journalism? Why is no one being like actually this is racist, we can’t post this?

I think it’s because, you know, I won’t pretend I have the answers or any, you know, the answers, but you know because the truth of the matter is there is still a certain cohort of society who lap up that sort of reporting and they are working and, you know, it’s audience. Who is your audience? And that’s the problem. Who is your audience?

And one of the things that I’ve realized being a journalist, people gather around the things they hate and the people they love.

Rage Bait?

Is it? Is it? It is. But even, I think, yeah, it’s kind of this rage. But like if you’ve got a— I think one thing in journalism is that if you notice there’s sort of like a common enemy and like, you know, even when you think about the elections that we’ve just had and I think it was the Sun that they were going to support Starmer, their front page was managing his second— it wasn’t worth supporting Starmer, it was that we want to get rid of Rishi Sunak. That was how they showed their support for Starmer.

Journalism knows in terms of audience, getting people to rally around things they hate sells and gets eyeballs and clicks more than things we love, and that’s an unfortunate thing. I actually think sometimes that’s kind of been where Black Ballad has maybe definitely been different and maybe not— people might say we’ve not grown as fast. It’s taken us 10 years to get to do certain things because I made the very conscious effort that I wasn’t going to go down that route.

It’s all positive, positive things.

Yeah.

Even when we have to discuss trauma and we have to discuss, you know, because no one’s life is perfect, no experience is perfect, no community or identity group has perfect lives in a perfect world and has a perfect life, so we have to discuss the hard things, right? But when we’re discussing them we make sure it’s done with care and we have a duty of care to the writer and to the audience, so we’re very careful.

And, you know, I have to credit J. Benson, our head of editorial. She’s very mindful on how we get those things across. It’s not going to be a rage clickbait sort of headline that’s going to be super negative that’s going to get everyone to rally around that. That is not what we do.

So that’s really the answer in terms of how I think and the lessons that I’ve learned being in offices, of how this sort of thing works.

It makes sense and I think like, you know, bad news sells and like it is all— news is just— that’s why I don’t like turning on the news because it is just quite depressing.

So, you know, let’s talk about the more positive things, which is Black Ballad and like the positive stories that you guys do and you uplift people. And let’s start with the fact that you’ve been around for 10 years now. This is nuts, like you’re celebrating your 10-year anniversary and as part of that you guys launched a huge billboard campaign all across the UK, which you were in.

I was in.

Which is exciting, but that was— I was honestly, I’m still kind of in shock about it all, but we’ve got to tell people about it because it’s such a huge achievement for you guys, what you guys pulled off. I was just on a little square, whereas you guys pulled this insane thing off. And, you know, watching you guys on social media going visiting them all as well was really fun to see. But please tell us about that because that is no small feat, and you must be mega proud of what you’ve done.

I am mega proud. I have to say that, you know, the reason it happened was, you know, I worked with another black woman called Ramama Tajali at Google who really championed Black Ballad for this campaign. So Ramama approached us about working together on some sort of campaign that was going to give visibility to black women who kind of wanted careers in tech. That’s kind of the idea of how it started.

And then as we were talking and, you know, things happened, you know, the collaboration got delayed here and there, we started to kind of think about showing black women off in the working world in general. And then Pixel got involved and then it was kind of like how do we work together. And I kind of had this idea of like what if we just shot these portraits of black women from different industries on a Pixel.

And I was really clear that I really wanted this sentence of, “This is what a CEO looks like. This is what a web developer looks like,” or “This is what a doctor looks like,” because I honestly believe, and you know people can say what they want, black women are so important to the British workforce. When you think about how, whether it be those that came on the Windrush to be the fabric of the NHS in terms of being nurses and stuff like that, or those that worked in transportation when they came over, or when I think about, you know, I’m of Nigerian heritage and I identify as being British Nigerian, but when I think about my biological parents and I think about my in-laws and all the aunties and uncles I have, and when I think about the jobs that they did and how they’ve risen up the ranks, their contribution to the working society of Britain has kept it going.

And I really feel that. Like, you know, that is never really— it’s kind of celebrated but it’s never really boldly said. It’s kind of like we’re more than just cooking the world. We bring a huge amount of money to this country in terms of whether it be as entrepreneurs or just keeping systems going. So I wanted to celebrate that.

And we shot 56 black women from doctors to content creators. We had barristers, we had HR professionals. We shot them over three days, which was very hectic, in the YouTube studios of Google. And we had an amazing photographer called Anna Pinto and she shot everybody on a Pixel.

And then once we saw it, and then we worked with an amazing designer called Sharida, who’s not actually based in the UK, a black woman, and we started to see it and I was like, I have to get this billboarded. Like this has to be more than just on my site.

And it also, you know, personally for me, you know, I’ve got two kids and I want them to see something different from what I saw. Like I love the fact that my daughter is obsessed with doctors and the doctors she can name are black doctors. I love that for her. I really, really love that for her.

So me and Ramama were talking and kind of making a plan, like how do we get this billboarded? And very actually, we were actually supported by the Mayor’s Office, who gave us some free billboards.

Damn, I didn’t know that. That’s amazing actually.

Yeah.

So they actually got behind this campaign.

Yeah.

Deputy Mayor is Debbie Bernard, who is a black woman, and she got behind the campaign and said like, okay cool, how can I help? And I said I really want to make this visible around London. And it was really close to the wire and about, I think, maybe a week before she said, “We’re going to get it billboarded.”

And I was like, oh my God.

So yeah, and then we had billboards everywhere from Shoreditch to Central, to Hackney, you know, all around London. And I was just so in awe of the fact that, one, the women who were in the campaign got to see themselves on a billboard. I got to take my children to it and my children saw me. And I actually saw some other people that they recognized because I had a few friends that were in it as well.

And then I think the one that really got me was I went to see one in like the London Bridge Southwark area and there was a woman that was driving past and she was taking pictures of the billboards. And I said, “Are you in the campaign?” And she was like, “No, I just love it and I love the work.”

And I was like, that’s amazing.

And then when we were walking, I would see black women looking up and they were like, “Oh my God, what is it?” They were just looking up at it and I was like, this is what I wanted to do. I wanted black women to really see themselves and everyone else to see us. And we are a modern face of the British workforce. I truly believe that.

I think black women are so pioneering in terms of smashing a concrete ceiling and the route to getting through that concrete ceiling takes a lot of resilience and perseverance and tenacity. And I believe that every single black woman who was in that campaign has had to display those characteristics to get where they are now.

So the billboard campaign with Google, Women’s International Day, was just phenomenal. And still to this day I think is my career highlight. I can’t explain, even now as I’m talking about it and I’m smiling, I can’t explain how it felt to get everyone on that billboard. Like it’s just amazing.

I mean, I can semi-understand because I can understand one fifty-sixth of it because I was just on that and I can tell you from my perspective what it meant to me as well. Because someone who is a black woman in an industry where I don’t know of a single other black woman who runs a web design agency, I just don’t. I’ve never met another black female web developer.

Yeah.

And in my job I consistently get asked, where is your male boss? Or like, can I speak to the guy in charge? And it’s just… and I walk into a room and I was on my tech and they’ll immediately assume that I don’t know what I’m talking about just because I look the way I do. And even if they’re not necessarily racist or sexist, there are those unconscious biases that they don’t even realize exist and they will just not trust me as much as they trust the white male counterpart.

Yep.

And I’ve had this all my life and even now, even today, on a call they were going with another agency. I always look them up and it’s just an all-male agency. Happens every single time I look. They’ve got no good credentials, no good portfolio, but somehow they connected with them.

And so to see my face on there and like, oh my God, the quality of people you got, like to be next to them and to also be in that same room when you threw that party at Google and they had it in the office and to meet them, and it was just this room of pure black girl magic, black excellence, all that stuff that you say. And it genuinely, I think, changed almost everyone’s life in that room because it does. It’s like you realize that you’re…

I keep like, oh my God, I think I was in this room actually when you sent that email and I was like, a freaking billboard? Like what the hell? I couldn’t really understand it. And then I was like, wait, all these women. And then I remember going through this list and I just went follow, follow, follow, follow. I just followed all of these amazing women and it was just like every day I was seeing these posts and all these women and then seeing all the amazing stuff they did.

And then you brought like fifty-five other amazing women into my life who are so inspiring that you can look up to. And I just think I wish I had that when I was a kid, that I knew that there were these incredible black women out there smashing in life. We were all phenomenal humans because I grew up being told that black people are inferior.

Yeah.

And that black women can’t do it. And all my teachers had told me never to apply for medical school because I won’t ever get in, or never do this, never do that. And all I’ve been told all my life is that I won’t ever amount to anything.

And if I had all these women to look up to, I just think you’ve set this beautiful thing for all the future girls of tomorrow. So I think it’s amazing.

Thank you. Thank you so much. It means the world. As I said, I’m so proud of that campaign and I have to really say it was such a team effort to get it all across the line. You know, start with Ramama and Anna and Sharida and the Black Ballad team. It was a real sort of like, can we do this in three days?

I’m still shocked that we shot everybody in three days and it came out so well. But like I said, I was more sort of like, this is the vision, can we execute? But I’m so, yeah, as I said, it’s amazing to see us.

And also one of the things I love is that it showed physically how there’s no one specific look of a black woman. Like so many different intersections. And you know, we had a carbon rating scientist and I remember being like, what is a carbon rating scientist? And I learned a lot. I learned a lot. And we had a cyber underwriter. I learned a lot in that process.

And even one of the most obvious ones, we had a black female dentist and I realized, and I grew up in a multicultural area, I’d never had a black female dentist.

Trusting.

And I’ve never met one either.

So I learned a hell of a lot. And I always think personally, for me, those are always the great projects on Black Ballad where I get to learn. So I’m really happy for it.

Obviously that campaign was unbelievably successful.

What is next in the pipeline for Black Ballad?

Oh, our Weekender is on the 23rd and 24th of August. I think this is probably the biggest leap of faith I’ve ever had in doing this journey. But this whole idea of, you know, when we were thinking about 10 years and I was like, actually, it wasn’t last year, it was the year before, we were approaching around the eight-year mark. I was like, we might get to 10 years. This thing is heading towards being sustainable and like 10 years.

And I was thinking about what do I want to do, and my co-founder is actually my husband, so I talk about work a bit and we were talking about what we want to do. And when I started Black Ballad, I actually did American Studies at King’s College and I took a lot of modules that were around African American culture and history. Your final papers, dissertation essays, I’d always do something to do with African American history and politics and literature. I did my dissertation on colorism and I had a whole chapter on Essence. So I was studying Essence and Ebony and I was looking at these magazines and that’s part of the inspiration of why Black Ballad started.

And obviously not everyone will be familiar with Essence Fest and it’s this huge festival in America where black women come together in New Orleans for three days and they have talks and music and food and it’s just this amazing culture experience. And I didn’t think we quite had anything in the UK like that. We’ve got the phenomenal Beauty Beat, which is focused on beauty, and then we’ve had Black Golf Fest as well and Black British Business Show, which is just business, but I kind of still felt there was room for something that was for black women and around like I guess mainly millennial age.

And I like so I kind of thought okay and then our audience is kind of millennial, Gen Z, then Gen X and I was thinking, well, how could we do something that spans across all the generations? And I was like, you know what, I’m a Christian and I was like, I’m going to take a leap of faith on God and I’m just going to book a venue and I’m going to do something really big.

And also one of the things I kind of felt, you know, being a black entrepreneur and lasting for 10 years is a testament in itself. I backed old investment and I didn’t get sort of money that other people get. I also have to respect the fact I’m in media, so it’s not like tech. It’s tech-enabled but it’s not tech. So, of course, all those factors come into play. But we can’t downplay that black women need to get investment, so let’s be honest and real.

So it was like so I kind of had this thing, if it’s the last thing I ever do with Black Ballad, and it wasn’t a pessimistic thing, but you know when I was thinking about this, a lot of publications were closing down around me. Some were mainstream and some were black-owned. And you know media is going through a very tough time. It’s going through a really tough time. And I was just kind of like, if someone said to me you know this is the final year of Black Ballad, what would you want to do? I wanted to do this.

And I said, you know what, and I’m not saying that we’re closing, nothing like that, but it was just kind of, I want to celebrate and I wanted to do something that was going to challenge me and I was going to take a leap of faith.

And I said, I’m going to do this Weekender. I had the vision for it. I was like, we’re going to have these different rooms. We’re going to bring the editorial to life. Work and money is really important to our women, so is health and so is motherhood and family and so is beauty and so is books. And I was like, what if we were to have these rooms that are all mini festivals and in the middle we had a massive shopping experience which is a mix of black-owned and mass market?

And I was like, yeah, I’m going to do it. I’m just going to boldly do it.

So the Weekender happens in August and it is exactly that. It is going to be two days of an amazing immersive shopping experience for black women and then there’s going to be these amazing talks and panels that you can attend.

We have amazing women speaking such as Candice Brathwaite. We have Logic speaking. If anyone’s familiar with Nadine White, the journalist, she’s speaking. Bolu Babalola, who was in our Google campaign and we’ve worked a lot with over the years. To My Sisters podcast is speaking there’s a lot of like black women. There’s something for everyone. If you’re not a book babe but you’re a beauty babe, you’ve got something. If you’re not a beauty babe but you’re on work and money, you’re there.

I keep saying I’m going to be in the work and money and motherhood room. I’m trying to figure out how I can be in both rooms at the same time. Those are the ones I want to be in.

And I just want this experience for black women to actually… my hope for the Weekender is that black women go in and they get to buy a lipstick they’ve always wanted, but they get to meet and have fun with other black women. But they get to go to a talk that’s going to push them to take the next step in their career, or they’re going to go to a talk that’s going to make them feel like they’re doing okay as a working mom, or they’re going to go to the talk where it’s going to push them to be like, you know, I actually need to call my doctor, actually, or I need to push harder.

And that’s just my dream for the Weekender and I’m so excited. It’s coming together. We’ve got some amazing brands on board. Just Eat are creating a whole black-owned food court with three black vendors who are going to be like yeah so you haven’t even got to go out for food. You have not got to leave this place for 48 hours.

Penguin are creating a book room with only black authors, like so many different talks. It’s so amazing and I think it’s a real moment for the culture.

We’ve actually, for the first time, we’re allowing men to speak. We’ve actually got a black masculinity panel, which you know is something you know people you know from some of the stuff we’ve done, people wanted it. Black women wanted it. So it’s absolutely an amazing thing I think we’re going to pull off.

Thousands of black women in one room, I mean why not come?

I just think it’s phenomenal what you’re doing and loads of stuff there resonates with me again because I guess…

I think first thing is one of the first times I ever went to an event and it was just for black women was probably one of the most lifechanging moments to me because I sat in this room and all these things I’ve ever thought about myself and all the reasons what that I go into stuff with think thinking of myself in a certain way or thinking I can’t do you know believe in myself or I come across in a way I realized that all these other women felt the same way.

And they were talking about it. I was like oh my God like it’s not just me who think like this. This is all these other women are like this and they all have the same worries because they’ve been told XYZ all their life going up and they really really changed it for me.

And I suddenly felt understood like for the first time and it was just honestly lifechanging.

And again what you’re saying about how they have this in America but they don’t have it here.

And when you talk about Ebony magazine you know what’s funny I was was actually in Ebony magazine once.

Oh yeah because of because of what I’ve done in chess right.

So in chess I in the US there was not a black female chess master.

Oh wow.

And in the U on the US rating list I’m the highest black female rated they of the is.

Oh wow.

But I’m not American but they still pry though and because I played in America a lot and and and they were like what can women do in the US and like how can women become a black master and they were still wanting to promote me.

And I’ve had different journalists in the US do that.

In the UK I am told that I shouldn’t play for England because I don’t look English.

There’s a huge difference between how I was treated in America supposedly the most racist country in the world versus how I’m treated here.

And this is why I have this disconnect with people who say stuff about race versus UK versus US and we actually spoke about this.

I have a whole thing on that which is another topic for another day but like why is it that the UK find it so…

Hard to put like to to to praise of black people and I just find that remarkable.

And it’s you know if you if you get and you think about who’s the most famous black people you know in the US black excellence is everywhere in music and sport dominates and actually in a lot of different high corporations it’s very normal to find successful black people in the US.

In the UK I think it’s where I struggle to know that many.

Obviously we’ve got billboarded of plenty but you know but that’s because people like yourself are highlighting it.

I don’t think society does.

I think what America do is that they highlight probably black people more but then obviously they make up a bigger proportion than we do.

So like and they have institutions where it’s like their voices you know they come together and they have their own publications and you know they have like different community groups and stuff like that and their voices are heard more because there’s more of them and there’s more different groups.

I think one of the things that you know here where we’re smaller and maybe there’s not so many of us doing you know not so many publications because right now you know with Black Ballad I personally struggle to think of another black female publication.

If they’re out there please do me because I wouldn’t want to offend anybody but you know it’s hard to keep going in the UK.

I think that’s also something that’s worth saying.

And also I feel like you know when I was raising money for investment a lot of people saying go to US because there’s black signs and money is really important when it comes to visibility and who’s seen and stuff like that.

Black funds in the UK I don’t know if there’s any left.

I think they’re very few far between.

And also there’s a much I personally think for me black funds in the UK have a much more narrow view of what they will accept because you know they’re trying to get off the ground do you know what I mean.

Whereas they want the next big tech thing whereas a media thing wasn’t quite right though it wasn’t going to make them look a certain way or they think it was going to make a certain amount of money.

Where Blavity in the US media company was able to get that funding.

Yeah.

Able to get that funding.

So we’re definitely here in terms of like you know every time I see a black woman, black man, black person who’s risen up the ranks and set corporations I’m like my God that’s really good.

It’s amazing like to do it especially in you know white spaces.

Kudos to you because I know it must take a lot of fortitude.

I think what you said though in this country we don’t like acknowledging it.

We don’t like celebrating it and when we try to people try to silence us and that’s not healthy for anybody.

But come an occasion where we have to show a multicultural society you’ll see all the most black senior people wheeled out because this country loves a bit of D and I.

And I hate that.

And it’s like whilst I love that D and I become more of a topic of conversation I think it’s needed.

I think diverse teams are the most successful team but I hate token diversity and I hate it when people do it because they’re just showing that they are not racist and they support it and it’s not real.

Because at the end of the day who’s actually getting the promotion, who’s actually getting valued and who’s actually getting a voice in the room because for me that’s more important than just being on a poster for something.

Yeah.

And so you know I think that what you’re doing is so so so important and I hope that more people can understand it and more people can get behind it.

What is next?

I mean like you’ve got the Weekender.

I can’t even believe that you’re pulling something like that off as well.

Like that’s I mean this is the stuff that you got to think about it like you said all that stuff that goes against you and you’re pulling off one of the biggest events around.

It’s insane right.

And you’re doing this and it shows you how important there is and how much of a need there is that thousands of women want to come to this weekend and sees how important that is.

And it shows me that more of it’s needed in this country because like why would so many people come to this one weekend and belonging was really important and people shared that vision.

So what can people do to amplify this because it’s obviously needed?

Well you can follow us on all social platforms.

We’re Black Ballad UK.

Black is in the color, Ballad is in the song, and in UK because I know people put an R in Black, it’s not black.

Ballad, no no, it’s Black Ballad as I said, color and song, UK.

You know if you want to get a membership, memberships start at $4.99, that would be amazing.

So there’s memberships.

Even if you don’t want to become a member, subscribe to our newsletter so you get all notification what we’re doing and stuff.

And then of course buy a ticket to the Weekender, bring your friend along.

You know this is for and by black women.

We got some really interesting questions actually.

People been like, oh but I’m not a black woman but I’m thinking of getting a ticket with my friend.

You can come.

Black women are just a priority.

Black women will always be the priority so it’s not like we’re saying no one else can come.

But getting a ticket to the Weekender, you won’t regret it.

And I think that’s important though.

I think that people who are not black women could still come because you know if you want to learn about that culture and you want to understand more about what black women go through and how you can help, people are going to want that.

We, you know, we’d want more people to understand and try and help and you’re not going to turn away allies for sure.

And also being respectful to black people have different partners and friendship groups.

You know your partners may not be the same race as you or your friendship group, you know.

And sometimes, you know what, when you go into a new environment it could be a little bit nerve-wracking.

Because I’m a terrible networker.

Every time I have to network I feel like the levels of anxiety and I’m like, oh my God.

And I ring a friend and be like, oh my God, you want to come with me because I don’t want to be by myself.

So I get it.

Some people might not want to come by themselves.

So if you’re a black woman definitely come, but you know if you come by yourself you will make friends because that’s one thing about the Black Ballad community.

As black women we are looking to connect to our black-minded black women.

We’re looking to have conversations and just have a good time and have enjoyment.

But yeah, getting a ticket to the Weekender, you won’t regret it.

So you said that if this was the last thing you ever did with Black Ballad that you wouldn’t regret it.

But you know it’s obviously not going to be the last thing you do.

This is unbelievable.

So what is your big, big, big vision?

What do you see Black Ballad doing now?

Like now you can think, you’ve really been on all the billboards, you’ve created the biggest weekend.

I want to know what’s next.

I’d love to see how the Weekender does this year.

You’re going to smash it.

That’s fine, that’s good.

But if it goes well, is there something that becomes more regular?

That is a huge thing for me.

It gets bigger because we’ve been digital for so long, it’s like the time to bring it offline.

That would be amazing.

I think also for me I’m really interested in, you know, we’ve been doing some really amazing things with brands at the moment.

Like getting black women into brands.

We were in Guerlain the other day.

We had like a skincare master class, getting black women into brands.

And one of the things, I don’t write, I write my newsletter every week, but one of the things I find a real passion for is getting brands to hear black women.

Because if you’re going to spend your hard-earned cash on items, then brands need you to do the work and actually think like about how you want to be communicated to.

I’ve been really enjoying the work we’ve been doing with brands in terms of getting black women in the door and touching the products and trying before they’re buying and the joy it brings.

I love that.

So I want to do some more stuff with brands.

Of course I want to make sure we’re serving black women outside of London.

It’s super important to me because, I mean, Brexit is Brexit because everything revolves around London.

But how can we tell the stories of black women who live in Preston?

How can we tell the stories of black women who live in Cardiff?

How can we continue to tell stories of black women who live in different cities in Scotland?

We’ve never done an event in Scotland.

We’ve never done an event in Wales and stuff like that.

And you know all of those things, like anyone running a business, it’s cash and it’s like how do you make it work.

But I really want us to spread our influence outside of London and start getting out to those different countries.

And my overall goal is I just want to be, I actually want to be the publication for black women in Europe.

But I think we should be.

I don’t think we should hold back.

We’ve already done so much.

Exactly what you should be doing.

And people are apparently flying in for the Weekender, so I’m like maybe that’s the first step to doing it.

So that’s kind of the vision of where I want to go to.

And I think making sure we’re serving black women outside of London and starting in different parts of the UK and going outwards, that’s where I want to go.

I love it and I can see that happening and I hope it does.

And thank you so much for being amazing.

Thank you for having me.