Sabrina Chevannes:

[Music]

Hi everyone, and welcome to this week’s episode of No Bullsh*t Talks.

I just want to say hi to all the recurring listeners who have been supporting the podcast so far. I want to say a massive thank you, and just a reminder to hit that like, subscribe, and follow button, and leave us a rating or review because you have no idea how much that helps us and how much we appreciate it. It helps me get amazing guests on the show every week, just like today’s guest who I’ve got, and it’s Mitch Gray.

I want to introduce you as an author, business consultant, and inspirational speaker, just to name a few. But why don’t you tell us in your own words today what you do?

Mitch Gray:

Yeah, first of all, thank you for having me on the show.

Our conversations before now have been amazing, and the podcasting world, for those that don’t podcast or go on podcasts, for just the people listening, it’s a really amazing subculture that exists amongst podcasters.

So yeah, thanks. I’ve been looking forward to this conversation for a long time.

So, I have a book out, How to Hire and Keep Great People, and that’s what I do. I teach business leaders how to build a great team, how to design inclusive and empowering culture.

Really, my favorite thing about what I do is helping leaders learn to empower themselves. Oftentimes, my specialty is small businesses, so you know, 20 million or less, teams of 100 or less.

Really, those leaders, when you’re talking about people that are starting businesses, running businesses, small businesses specifically, it can become incredibly stressful and overwhelming, and it kind of takes over your life.

Just a few days ago, in fact yesterday, I had a meeting with a client of mine that I’m actually getting to help in person right now, which is really cool. We get to sit across the table from each other for an hour, and it basically became a therapy session to help him make some decisions and work through some things even personally.

To be honest, that’s the work that I really, really enjoy, is when we can really guide someone to find their real authentic place of leadership because when they find that, it impacts everything else around them for the good.

So in long form, that’s what I do, and I love it. I’ve been a speaker for, my gosh, over two decades now, 25 years. I’ve loved speaking at events as well.

So just trying to do good in the world, to be honest, and inspire as many people as we can. So yeah.

Sabrina Chevannes:

Amazing. So thank you so much for coming on today and helping me inspire all my listeners too.

So yes, I know that it’s going to be a great one. You’ve already mentioned about helping business owners hire, and oh my God, that is a major stress of mine at the moment, and every other business owner I speak to. It is the bane of our life right now.

I mean, I don’t know, how much have you seen the effects of the great resignation happening on your clients? Because over here, it feels like everyone can’t find good staff, and then there’s all these candidates saying that they can’t find a good job.

I’m like, are you joking? Everyone is… it’s so difficult at the moment. I feel like the quality has gone down, and it’s just impossible.

How are you finding your clients feeling about this at the moment?

Mitch Gray:

The same, really. The same.

I do think it’s a worldwide event. For the premise of today’s conversation, we’ll talk about the modern world. So where you are, and I’m in America, I have many friends in Canada and North America with the same issues. I talked to a client the other day who’s in Italy — same issues.

So it’s a common thread, and really everything that I teach is based on human behavior. What we’re seeing is just a basic human behavior response.

It’s really kind of, you know, if you take a bottle, and the top of the bottle is normally thinner than the body of the bottle, and if it’s a carbonated fluid like a soda and you shake it up, all that pressure rises to the top. So when you open it, it just explodes.

That’s really what happened in the job market the last couple of years. A few things happened simultaneously. Businesses were hit terribly by the pandemic. They either had to close temporarily, they lost customer base, so that impacts revenue. When you impact revenue, it impacts resources. You can’t hire as many people. Some people had to scale back teams.

That was happening simultaneously with employees getting let go or all of a sudden being given permission to go, “I’m going to take my career into my own hands. I’m not going to allow someone else to dictate what I get paid and when I work.”

The crazy thing is, for the first time in modern history, the employees had the advantage because now all of a sudden, all the reports coming out showed that businesses that allowed their people to work from home, productivity went up on average by 50 to 60 percent. Working was more advantageous and more efficient.

Now all of a sudden, businesses are saying, “Well, we want you to come back to the office,” and people are saying, “Why? You can’t give me a justifiable reason.”

Sabrina Chevannes:

I wonder where these reports come from because I have not seen this.

I swear that, I don’t know if it’s just the business that I do and we just have faith in people, but oh my God, our productivity crashed just massively.

Generally, when we hire people remotely, we can’t even get hold of them. We’re expecting them to log on, and after three days, they haven’t even done any work. We can’t even get hold of them.

It’s like we can turn up on their doorstep and be like, “Guys, aren’t you working?”

It’s something which I probably should feel like… I feel like I see this report everywhere, but I feel like someone’s fabricated these reports to justify working from home because I just don’t believe it. I don’t actually see it.

Mitch Gray:

So there’s two sides of the coin. The pain points that you’re identifying are real.

What I’ve seen is they’re more real for small businesses than they are for corporate. So I will say, when you look at data, I do believe it shows an average trend, but when you look at data, you’re also looking at business as a whole.

About 92 percent of the world marketplace is small business, so 20 to 25 million, 100 or less employees. But the problem with that is what tips the scales in a lot of data is when you throw in companies like Amazon, Google, and these worldwide companies. There’s a whole list of them — Fortune 500 companies. They tip the scale because they have 10,000 employees, you know? You may have eight or ten, and you are along with the other 90 percent of what holds the world economy.

So what you’re seeing is truth.

I will say, some of the people that I work with that have more small to medium businesses, so maybe the 50 to 100 threshold, they are seeing more what the data is showing.

Really small businesses, like what you’re dealing with, are really the micro. A lot of those people are dealing with… again, I was talking to a client the other day, same point you’re pointing out. It’s the restaurant industry. They shut down their lobby, they did drive-through only. Well now they’re trying to open their lobbies back up, and they’re having a hard time getting people to come in and work.

So really, kind of going back to that idea, we simultaneously had all these phenomenons that we had never dealt with happening all at once.

Now, I will point to what you were dealing with, along with many other people, but the reality is pre-pandemic, those businesses weren’t set up to hold remote workers. So when you have a team of eight to ten people and you don’t have systems set up to help remote workers succeed, it’s really difficult to transition into that, and it caught everybody by surprise.

Now all of a sudden, people are going, “Okay, if we want to keep remote workers, what systems do we need?” You hear that conversation a lot. They’re finally reflecting on what you just said. They’re not showing up, they’re not checking in.

Well, there has to be a totally different set of systems for people that you don’t see face to face. When you see people face to face, you have kind of a natural accountability filter because you’re in person, and people just weren’t prepared for that. They just weren’t.

Simultaneously, I actually have a belief that most people in leadership positions have never really been taught how to recruit and hire. When you’ve never been taught how to recruit and hire, and all of a sudden you’re in the market that you mentioned, where people are saying, “I can’t find jobs,” because the market is saturated with people needing to work, but the market is also saturated with leaders that don’t know how to hire.

So you again have this kind of simultaneous phenomenon happening, and workers are frustrated, but leaders are also frustrated. It makes a really interesting dynamic, and it’s really a dynamic that if everyone keeps pushing defensively, it’s going to continue to combust.

At some point, people have to say, “Okay, as a hiring leader, as a leader, I’m going to learn how to hire the best people for my team.” And they are there.

I don’t call this the great resignation. I call it the gold age of hiring. I call it that because there are more quality people without work right now than there’ve ever been. Also, there are incredibly talented people who have jobs that are looking for a change.

So for a great company with a great culture, now is the time to be hiring. It’s an insane time. There’s so much opportunity.

Sabrina Chevannes:

Okay. So what you said, supposedly there’s leaders that don’t have any hiring training, which is completely true.

I mean, I would also ask, where do we get this training from? I know that’s what you do, but I’m saying that in general, it’s true. There seems to be training for everything, but no one thinks to take the lead as a playwright — this is how you do it.

So I kind of want that training right now. I don’t know. Yes, Elena, how do I hire the right people? What do I look for? What should I be doing? Because no one’s ever explained this to me.

I think I’ve just kind of thought, “Oh, I know what our company culture is. I know what we’re looking for. I know skills and soft skills, and I know what I’m looking for.” But really, am I doing it right? No one’s ever taught me this.

So, see what you can do in the next five to ten minutes. Give me a crash course on hiring. What do I do?

Mitch Gray:

First of all, I want to affirm the struggle because that’s the struggle that 99 percent of leaders deal with, which is really what motivated me to write the book and create the course because I didn’t find the resources that I needed 20 years ago, and I didn’t find the resources now, 20 years later, that you could use.

The first thing I like to start with is you. It’s just like Marketing 101. When you go to set up a business and market, you’re going to create an ideal client. Now you’re going to add additional clients, but really, you have to have that ideal client to market your product toward so that you can kind of gain bonus currency.

It’s the same idea when you’re looking at creating the perfect persona for a teammate. What type of personalities do you want? How do you want to balance your team with those personalities? What type of work ethic do you want to see in those people? What type of skill set do you need on your team?

If you have a team of eight, you’re probably going to need four or five different skill sets. What type of cultural sanitation do you want at the table? You really need to reflect the audience that your product is headed toward or that you’re serving. You need to reflect that inclusivity.

Really, if you can create the perfect teammate persona, that gives you a foundation. I know of companies that actually have printed bios. They created three or four personas and they print what that person kind of looks like, where they live, what books they read, what causes they support, what coffee shops they go to, what styles they kind of move toward.

Again, you could play this game, get some publications or go online, and just pull random thoughts. “I really want this type of personality on my team, and I also want this type of personality.”

When you can create that roadmap, that first step alone gives you some organization. Then the question becomes, where do I find those people?

Sabrina Chevannes:

This is crazy.

See, what I do for my clients from a branding perspective, and I’m just sitting here exactly right. This is literally what I do. We create personas. It sounds ridiculous — print them out. I’ve designed them and created little avatars and say who they are and where they shop and their favorite brands and all that kind of stuff, favorite TV shows and all that kind of stuff.

I do that for my clients from a branding perspective. I never even thought to do that in terms of a hiring perspective.

So I’m sitting here going, “Oh my God, why not?” Because I literally do it already. It’s so crazy.

Mitch Gray:

But it makes sense, doesn’t it? Because you get results from it, and it gives you a plan and an identity. Then you simply ask, just like you do in marketing, where do those people live? Where do they exist?

Sabrina Chevannes:

And how do I talk to these people? Because that is what I say to my clients. How can you copy your brand message and put the copy on your website if you don’t know who you’re talking to?

Actually, who am I wasting my job descriptions toward and my job advertisements? Because I haven’t even targeted this person. I don’t… that’s crazy.

Mitch Gray:

But that’s exactly the response I get from every single leader I present this to because I say every leader running a successful business has done this when it comes to their product or their client base.

Then I paint that picture like, “Wait a second. I know how to do that.” Yes, you do know how to do that. So just do it when it comes to building your team. It’s a really fun thing, and you’re a professional at it.

Take that same approach and apply it to building your team. Again, all you’re asking is, where do I find those people? Where do they exist? Where do they function? What do they do? What hobbies do they have?

The great thing about hiring, just like with your customers, is once you find a few of them, you will find many of them because birds of a feather flock together. People with common interests do common interest things.

So it’s no different than marketing a product, brand, or idea. It’s the same thing, and you’re just applying it to building your team.

Then your question was, “Well then, how do I write a job description?” Guess what? You know your culture, you know what you need, and now you know who you need. So then the next thing is, why do you need those people?

That’s larger than a job description. What I like to tell people is put the job description aside for now, and when you discuss your why, talk about why you need those personalities. Why do you need those skill sets? Why do you need an introverted person and an extroverted person so you’re finding balance on your team?

Then you bring the job description there and you go, “Okay, how are they going to fit these roles?” Because what we’re looking for is alignment. Everyone has experienced when you have one or two people that don’t align, especially on a small team, it really messes up the energy of the team. It just does not work.

So when you know who you need, where they exist, and why you need them, the job description kind of takes care of itself because now you’re selling someone on culture, not on a job.

When someone buys into your culture, they will do their job very well. But if you don’t have an identity for that culture or how they’re going to do this, you’re going to miss every time unless you get really lucky. Sometimes you get lucky, but you really can put strategy to hiring and recruiting, and it’s really that simple.

Sabrina Chevannes:

Maybe Phil’s shaking about it. I feel like I’m sorry.

How do we stay competitive and attract talent? Because you’ve got the big guys out there.

I put a job search up the other day, and I was putting a story on LinkedIn about how I was struggling to find good developers, and they’re like, “Oh God, you’re only paying up to 85,000 pounds? Graduates get that from Google.”

Okay, so go to Google. We can’t compete with that. But that is a lot of people’s attitude, and I feel like social media hasn’t helped because a lot of these big guys are stepping up now and talking really publicly about what they’re offering.

I feel like COVID has caused a sense of entitlement amongst candidates now, and like I said, it’s definitely their market. They’re in control. They have all the power.

There were so many stories where I’ve got other company owners saying that the juniors who were originally on, say, 25k — and this is pounds by the way, so it’s not as bad as it sounds — and they haven’t changed their value as an asset to the company, but they feel they are entitled to that pay because that’s what other people are supposedly on.

It’s really difficult. I just feel like as a small business, there’s no way I could pay what Facebook, Google, and all these companies pay. Obviously not always the same type of people who want to work at those companies will want to work at a small business. The people who do, that’s obviously part of the first exercise, why I need to speak to those guys.

But at the same time, how do you think small businesses can stay attractive to the talent out there compared to what other people are offering?

Mitch Gray:

Right, right.

Mitch Gray:

My immediate response always is because you’re a small business, that is the greatest selling point you have. Here’s why I say that. Again, I want to refer back to what I said earlier, that everything I teach is based on human behavior.

Here’s what we know about humans. People take a job for money. They don’t stay because of that. They just don’t. People may take a job at Facebook or Google for that much money, but if it’s a really frustrating, disconnected job, in a year they’re going to leave.

As a small business owner, what you’re looking for is telling your story in a way that shows your assets. “I’m the owner. You get to interact with me every day. Our team is small, and we do really awesome things by supporting each other, by having parties, coffee Fridays, by eating lunch together,” whatever that looks like.

There are so many awesome incentives that small businesses have to offer that oftentimes leaders forget because, again, a small business leader is oftentimes wearing so many hats, they forget to simply be the leader.

That’s what humans want. They want interaction, they want engagement, they want affirmation, they want strong, vibrant, empowering culture. Corporate America can give that to a point, but at some point in Corporate America, you do just become a number. In small business, you’re always a person.

When you can wrap your story around those assets and then know who you’re going to tell that story to with an approach to recruiting that I love, it’s very different in today’s day and age.

A lot of people don’t use it because we do have technology. I call it lifestyle work. Every single day I go get coffee, I go to the grocery store, I go to the bookstore, I go somewhere, and I meet about 10 to 12 people a week that I would personally recruit.

Here’s where I’m going with that. When you’re a small business, you have the advantage and opportunity to engage with that person on a basis over time. That builds a relationship. You have a trust factor that Corporate America doesn’t have with that person.

So when the time comes that maybe they’re looking for an opportunity and you have an opportunity to offer, you actually have a leg up even if you’re paying decently less than a corporation.

You have a leg up on that person. You know them. You’ve heard about their family. You’ve ordered coffee from them 150 times. You’ve seen their work ethic, you’ve seen their personality, they have proven themselves to you.

Those really do become the selling points of your business. Money is important, and you’re right, small businesses most of the time won’t be able to compete with Corporate America on front-side pay. What they can beat Corporate America in is culture and engagement.

“Hey, I’m going to be there for you every day. I am the owner, and I’m going to personally train you on X, Y, and Z. Hey, you know what? You get to have a say in the ideas we take part in. You actually get to work with clients personally.”

In your industry, in fact, you’re full of creatives. Creatives love nothing more than actually getting to be in the process.

What happens over time is most Corporate America people that take a job for that money find out quickly that they’re just a number, and so they often leave. I was talking to someone last week, same situation, working for a corporate company, and they’re like, “I just can’t do it. I can’t do it.” They’re working remotely, they’re very unattached, they’re not a part of the team.

If a small business came in right now and promised those assets to that person, they would take ten thousand dollars a year less because money can’t bring that type of satisfaction if it’s misaligned. If their stress is high, they’re missing out on their family and their social activities, they’ll replace ten thousand dollars with that.

You have to trust that. You have to trust that and fully believe in it.

Some people say, “Well, but I’m missing opportunity.” My question is, how much opportunity are we actually looking for? Sometimes we are missing opportunity, but we’re also missing the opportunity that we’re not ever thinking is available, if that makes sense.

Sabrina Chevannes:

Yeah, I totally get it. I think that I would want to work in a company like that, and that’s obviously why I made my own company anyway.

But I think my issue is that, say you’ve got a candidate there and they seem ideal, but they’re holding out for a bigger, better job, then obviously you haven’t sold yourself on your company.

I feel like sometimes these guys… I had someone who left our company to go work for a big company in the UK, and then they were being treated so badly. There was no respect, working all night, the work-life balance was awful, and they regretted it and wanted to come back. But by that point, it’s too late.

I think that’s the issue, making us attractive first. I think it’s interesting because you just mentioned all those little things about how it’s really personal, they get to work with the leader there every day, and they’re very much an integral part of the company. They’re hugely insightful because they are a larger percentage of the company versus being a fish in a big pond.

That’s what they’ve got to realize. I think clients do appreciate that, and actually they’ve got more career progression because if they’re there in the beginning and say the company does grow, they become a leader very quickly. So it’s a very different thing.

It’s funny because I can communicate that with clients. That’s the reason why they choose us as an agency. One of the big advantages is we give that personal service, then you get to have the person with the most amount of experience, which is me, who’s got 13 years of creative experience, and they get to work with me throughout the whole project.

In a big company, they would get that big senior creative in the sales pitch, but then perhaps junior creatives would actually be working on their projects, and it’s a totally different thing.

It’s interesting again that I can see how to sell that to clients, but I still kind of weirdly didn’t realize I’m already doing this, which is kind of bizarre.

But I think my question also lies between, obviously now circumstances have happened, circumstances have changed, a lot of people are working remotely, and I think there’s that thing you’re saying where people think, “I’m not going to come work in the office.”

You talked about restaurants. There are some industries and some companies where it’s unavoidable that they have to come work onsite with us. It’s not essential, but to us it is because we’re such a collaborative work process in our culture.

We do the lunches together, we have those associations where we create a really great office environment. We want people to be part of that. When people are doing this hybrid operation, I’ve actually spoken to loads of top agencies, and they’re saying that the hybrid operation isn’t working for them because you’ve got half the team somewhere else and they’re missing out on the office banter, they feel left out, and it just doesn’t feel good. The communication is just off.

So I guess my question is about that because a lot of people say, obviously if we’re offering just an in-house position, we’re going to miss out on a massive pool of talent. At the same time, we have always been kind of flexible, but we don’t want to encourage that.

What we’ve had before is people working from home, the timing’s off, and then it makes it seem bad and it causes friction in the team.

How do we find that happy balance? Same for companies who also have lots of other companies out there, lots of agencies wanting to bring people back fully in-house, but they can’t because people are having that friction around kids and stuff.

So when hiring, what advice can you give to people who perhaps do want to have someone in-house full-time but want to be a bit flexible and want to reiterate that? How do we as companies do that and attract talent without alienating a large pool of them?

Mitch Gray:

Yeah, and that’s a great struggle, especially right now because there is a new expectation from the worker’s standpoint, depending on the industry. Obviously, in a restaurant industry or retail industry, people have to be there. But in an industry like yours, there is the option of working from home.

Really what that comes down to is you better have very strong systems and reporting.

What I mean by that is you have to have a system of accountability, a system of development, and a system of camaraderie and culture that keeps those people plugged in.

For instance, a few weeks ago, it was actually a government agency, and I was at an event where they had part of the people tuning in via Zoom and part of the people in person. Well, they couldn’t get all the Zoom stuff figured out. They did a terrible job preparing for that, and so the people on Zoom couldn’t hear, and you could just see the disengagement. That’s very much a perfect example of what you’re talking about.

The great thing is when you set those systems up, you’re actually setting that employee up to live within your ecosystem. You’re not hiring them for you to live within their ecosystem. You’re hiring them for them to live within your ecosystem.

Now, you’re going to give compassion and empathy and interact, but really setting systems up for your remote workers to say, “Hey, here’s the times we check in, here’s the deadlines.”

I would offer that the systems for remote workers are probably even more strict than the systems for people that are in person. The reason being is because of the issues you just identified.

“Here’s when we have check-ins. Here’s when, if you have supervisors or whatever, who’s going to check in with your supervisor. Here’s the deadlines I need,” et cetera, et cetera, because you are totally out of control of that person working when they’re away from you.

So there are systems and accountability checks that you can build in that are so important across the board, but especially with remote workers. They sign off on those in the beginning, that “I’m going to follow these systems.”

So we trust you, you trust us. We’re going to empower you and give you everything you need to be successful, but here’s the system we follow.

Where a lot of small business owners make the mistake is they incidentally forget the system. They get so busy doing everything else that they forget the system they put in place.

I can almost promise you, I can walk into 70 percent of small businesses and they have some issue with their system, not because they haven’t designed the system, but because they aren’t following up on the system.

So it’s creating that concrete, non-negotiable “Here’s what we do. Here’s when we do it. Nothing more, nothing less is acceptable.”

Then as a leader, you’re just empowering the system.

The great thing is, again going back to human behavior, when you design a system for success that people know, “If I do this, my result is going to be very successful,” all you’re now holding that person accountable to is what they agreed to.

Mitch Gray:

So then it removes all the friction because now you’re just setting them up on the system they agreed to work within, with the promise that it will result in success if they follow the system.

The concept is really simple from that aspect. I love that as a leader because once the system is in play, all I’m doing is following the system. I don’t have to think about it. Everyone else is following the system, and the system, by the way, is founded on the culture we’ve set first.

When you can layer that on top of the foundation of the culture, then it becomes very easy to mitigate any issues that arise because we know how we can navigate them.

The biggest challenge that leaders have is they often, A, lead from assumption, and B, are walking blind. So they don’t have the knowledge they need, and then they lead from assumption.

“Well, I just hired Suzie. She’s going to give me 30 hours a week working from home. She knows what she needs to do. I’m going to trust her.” Mistake.

I do trust her, and because I trust her, I’m going to give her a system that will help make her successful. That’s how you bring about that opportunity to remove any of those issues that can arise.

Sabrina Chevannes:

I think you just summed up most small business problems, not just from a hiring perspective. Processes is our buzzword at the moment, isn’t it?

I have been spending my time making sure we have good processes and just keeping reevaluating again because of the fact that we’ve had changes obviously with everything.

I think what the issue was in small businesses, from what I’ve found and what you say about leaders not implementing the system, is because that benefit of the small business of everyone being close and feeling like family, it’s harder to be like, “Why aren’t you checking in with me?” because it feels more rigid.

When you’re talking about a big corporation, you expect that. If you walk into Microsoft, you expect, “Okay, what are the rules? Where do I need to check in? Do I need to do this?” It’s like school in some ways. You expect there to be some sort of hierarchy where often they’re the ones in charge.

Whereas a small creative agency is more like hanging out with your friends.

I guess university is maybe a better comparison. It’s a bit more chilled, you’ve got groups, you’ve got that sort of stuff.

I think that’s the difference. We’ve got good processes, we’ve worked on that, and we have systems, but I don’t think I’m good enough at coming down on people when they break those business processes. I think that’s the issue, and that’s really interesting.

I think the next question is, what you do, do you help companies create systems? I feel like it’s good enough saying, “Oh, you need a system and you need better systems,” but how on earth do you come up with a system that works for you?

Sabrina Chevannes:

Because for sure, there is not one system fits all. Absolutely not, right? We agreed that it’s based on culture.

So how do you go about helping a company create the perfect system for them?

Mitch Gray:

I’m going to keep it really simple because I love simplicity, especially in small business. The more simple we can keep it, the easier it is to follow.

To answer your other question, yes, that is a part of what I do. If you already have systems and someone wants to come on as a client and work with me, I review all of your systems, work with you and your team to really keep what’s working, and then renegotiate maybe what isn’t working. Then we can design from new, and we marry those together in alignment with your culture, your vision, and your mission.

So that’s exactly what I do.

I want to keep it really simple. Number one, what do you need to get done? In other words, your business exists — what needs done? What are the non-negotiable, everyday action steps that we have to take?

You ask that question as a whole, and then you ask that question for each position. So if I had a graphic designer, what’s non-negotiable? What needs to get done to make them successful? If I have a marketing person, what again?

You just go through every job. By the way, I’m also giving you how to write an easy job description. That’s the whole point. You’re asking it as a whole, and then you’re asking it within each role.

The second question you’re going to ask is, when does it need to get done? That’s going to be a moving scale. What I’m alluding to there is you’re going to give people timelines.

“We have three projects going. We’re working with three different clients. Here’s the timeline for each one. These are non-negotiable goals. Does everyone agree?”

What you’re doing there is you’re actually bringing in — you use the word family, a lot of small business owners do — you’re bringing in the family. You’re all sitting in the living room and you’re having a conversation around the problem.

What needs to get done? When does it need to be done? Does everyone agree? Yes, everyone agrees.

The last one is, how are we going to get this done?

Now all of a sudden, you’re taking these simple questions, you’re giving yourself the what, you’re giving yourself the deadlines, and you’re giving yourself the how.

At the end of that conversation, everyone listening needs to use this — “Does everyone agree to this process?” Once everyone agrees, your next question as the leader is, “Do I have your permission to hold you accountable to this process? Because this is going to empower our success.”

You’ve kind of made it a rally. Everyone is coming together, everyone has made these decisions, and now you’re asking for permission, which is big. I talk about that a lot with small business leaders. You must earn their trust and ask for permission.

When you do that, accountability doesn’t have to be an iron fist coming down. Accountability can simply be, “Hey, how’s that project going? Remember, we need that done by 9:30 tomorrow, so let’s get it in tonight so we need to make any adjustments. Deal?” Deal.

That’s all it is, and it’s just a constant conversation.

What I love about small businesses and small teams is when you do it right, everyone gets to be involved in the process.

Think about this for a second. I want to go back full circle. That person that you’re sitting across the table from, who is debating on working for corporate or working for your small business, just think if you could paint them a picture of what we just painted.

If you could just paint this picture to them and say, “You know what you get to do with us? You get to be involved in this. How does that make you feel?”

Now all of a sudden, you’re playing on the emotions of human behavior, and now all of a sudden they’re getting excited. It’s like, okay, do you want that excitement, or do you want to know because your friend Bob told you that working for corporate burned him out in six months? You get to decide that. I’m just telling you what I can offer.

I am telling you that if you did that five times a week…

Mitch Gray:

You would find incredible people because they want to work with a place that’s magnetic, empowering, and energetic. Now you’ve got your system of accountability.

Now the document — all you’re doing is taking that process and documenting it. That’s all it is.

I’ve seen businesses that literally make it that simple. “Here’s our systems.” We’ve documented the simplicity, and we follow it every single time. Or it could be a little more vast. It depends on what the leader wants, but that’s as simple as it can be.

Someone could do that today. It could be as easy as doing it today, and then you just hold everyone accountable to what they agreed to. Now people have empowerment. Now people get to choose.

When you put the ball in their court — “I’m just holding you accountable to what you agreed to, so let’s work together on this. Help me help you because I want you to succeed” — now all of a sudden people are like, “Wow, this really matters.”

What’s crazy about that is when you function from that level of leadership, people actually appreciate you more because they truly see that you care and that you want them to have success.

Sabrina Chevannes:

Yeah, I think you just painted an interesting picture because I feel like when the team feels like they came to the decision together, it’s a totally different thing, right?

It’s not an order from above. It’s their choice. They’re the ones that decided to do this, so it’s actually just what they agreed to. It’s their choice, not an order. So it’s the framing, right?

When you explain it that way, I think it should change things.

Yeah, it’s quite insane. I feel like there’s so much. It’s always about mindset. It’s blowing my mind.

What’s also blowing my mind is the fact that I’m thinking about it like, “Oh my God, now I’ve got this case and I’m going to do all this stuff.”

From your experience, how much time realistically is taken up from a hiring process? There’s a lot of time that is involved in that.

Sabrina Chevannes:

I get why people use recruitment agencies, but I hate the recruitment because everyone hates recruitment agencies.

I feel like with a lot of big agencies out there, they don’t care. The difference is what you said at the beginning, that you really care about the people. When you sit down and have a coffee together, you get to know them, you get to know their pain points, you want to solve their problems.

That’s very different from a standard off-the-shelf recruiter who just sees commission, commission, commission. They don’t care whether the place is a cultural fit. They’re just kind of like, “Okay, this person ticks this box, therefore if you put them in there, I’m going to negotiate your salary higher because it’s in my best interest, not the candidate’s.”

I just feel like there’s so much time taken up, which is why people think it’s worth paying a recruiter. But you also want to get it right, especially in a small business. Again, in big companies, people are just a number. Recruiters probably do a very, very good job at a very square process.

Actually, like we’re saying, it’s a family member. You’re going to spend 40 hours a week with these people every single week. You want to get on with them. In a smaller business, you see them all the time.

So I want to spend a lot of time picking the right person for the job, but it’s a lot going through it. Obviously, like I said, going through that now, doing the employee persona, that’s one thing, right? Writing the right job description, going through the CVs, doing the initial interviews, we do skills tests, then we do follow-up interviews, and maybe assessment days and all these kinds of things.

What have you got in numbers that you’ve seen? What is the average time spent on recruiting per employee, and what cost is that to a business?

I’d love to know because people think, “I’m saving money doing this myself.” I’m actually curious from your experience.

Sabrina Chevannes:

How many hours are we talking on average? How much cost in reality is it costing a business when hiring?

Mitch Gray:

So I’m going to give you a two-fold answer. I’m going to give you the concrete answer to that on average. Again, as we talked about in the beginning, these averages are a little bit fluid because you’re throwing in some different sizes.

I want to give you a two-fold answer after that.

On average, the Society for Human Resources across the world says that it costs about four thousand dollars to hire someone, and that’s not replacing someone. That’s hiring someone new.

If you’re replacing someone, the data says it’s a higher position, maybe a highly productive position. You’re probably going to lose about 200 percent of whatever their salary was because you’re replacing someone that’s already productive. You’re going to have a time lapse from the new person until you reach that measure of success again.

Usually, you have a six to eight-month range there where you’re not going to have that productivity, so it really can cost a lot.

Now my two-fold answer to your larger question.

I actually believe that, obviously, you need a specific strategy to recruiting. I believe that you need a specific strategy to hiring. I believe that you need a specific strategy to develop. You need a development plan for each person.

Now you’re right in the beginning that that’s going to take time, but here’s my deep-hearted sincere belief. If you will take time on that now, in 8 to 10 to 12 months, A, you won’t have a problem finding people, and B, you won’t have to go through that process again.

So it’s really a one-time process where you’re developing your perfect persona, you’re developing your plan, you’re developing your strategy. Once you have those at play, you don’t have to redevelop those.

I view all of this kind of like a toolbox. I need different pieces of equipment to do different tasks. So there is a role for recruiters. There is a role for LinkedIn, Glassdoor, Monster, Facebook, whatever else is out there. There’s a place.

But on a team of 5 to 30 people, you should be hand-selecting 99 percent of those people because you know your culture, you know what you want, you know your persona. Even if you share those with a recruiter, they still don’t know. They have the knowledge, but they don’t have the experience.

You’re actually going to get a higher percentage of success when you and your team — and I’m going to add a caveat here — your customers. That is a great recruiting tool that many people forget.

Take your best customers, your best clients, and ask, “Hey, you’ve enjoyed our company. You’ve enjoyed our partnership. Do you know anyone looking for a great opportunity?” It’s that simple of a question, and I promise you, your best clients know someone.

Again, you’re just setting that strategy into play.

Here’s the great thing about a long-term situation. Once everyone gets used to that recruiting culture and your highest performers, your teammates, your family, your clients, your customers — everyone’s constantly recruiting for you. This isn’t a one-time-and-done thing.

Once you get that in play, it’s powerful.

I have a story that I love. Twenty years ago when I was leading a different business, my kids were really little, and we would go to a restaurant or grocery shop or whatever, and they had a game — “Who’s Dad going to recruit today? Is he going to recruit the waiter? Is he going to recruit the manager?”

Because anytime I had a great experience, I was recruiting because I want great talent. So I was recruiting 30, 40, 50 people a week.

Here’s the saying I give to people. If you love your business and are passionate about your business, then recruiting people shouldn’t be a challenge because really what you’re doing is simply sharing the love and passion for your business with others because you’re constantly recruiting customers, or you should be.

It’s the same in recruiting talent.

So yeah, it just became this game that “Dad’s going to recruit,” and then they would ask me later, “Did you hire that girl you talked to the other night?” “Yeah, she came in, worked out, didn’t work out,” whatever. I get to decide that.

When you have those systems and strategies in play, they are a little bit expensive upfront from a time standpoint, but my point is over time, you’ve actually invested in it once. Then all you’re doing is reaping the rewards, and you’re not doing it alone. You’re adding your team in on the fun, and you’re adding your client base in on the fun.

If your clients love working with you that much, they want to send you good talent because they want to have that vested interest in your business. That’s how clients work. They love it.

You never know, a client may become an employee at some point. I’ve had that happen many times. You never know unless you ask.

Sabrina Chevannes:

That’s almost happened to me already, exactly how. They’ve left their position and they were actually looking to contract with me. So it is possible. Very good.

So it is definitely crazy, but I know that I’ve just slagged off recruiters because I hate them. I have such a passionate hate for them.

Mitch Gray:

I want to say though, you made a good point. They don’t have your best interest at heart, and that’s the main thing. When you’re using things like Glassdoor, LinkedIn, et cetera, yes, you can find people, but those automated services don’t have your best interest at heart.

There is no way you can put into an algorithm your culture and experience. It’s impossible to exactly algorithm that, and so you’re actually missing out on people by using those services.

What I say is you want 80 to 90 percent of your team to be hand-selected by your team, your clients, and yourself, and then the others are just a bonus. If you find someone great on LinkedIn or through a recruiter, awesome.

But I’m going to ensure — because you alluded to it — when you have a small team, every teammate has a greater ripple effect. Every teammate has a greater impact.

If you have a team of 500, not so much. You have a team of 10 and someone goes off the board, it really rocks things.

So I want to control who I bring into the family. I want to control who’s sitting in the living room, and I can do it really easily. Honestly, once these systems are in play, it doesn’t take much time. It really doesn’t.

Sabrina Chevannes:

You’ve got to explain to me then because I do believe that there is no way that you communicate culture and all that sort of stuff on these platforms, and there’s no way that a recruiter cares enough to learn.

That’s the thing. They’ve got a job to do, and with some respects, yes, it’s slightly unfair because I do get it’s a difficult job, what they have to do.

I get that they can’t sit down with you for hours and learn about who you guys are and what sets you apart because they’re probably having to do this for hundreds of companies. It’s just kind of overwhelming, and that means obviously some sort of conflict of interest with the candidates who come to them and where they place them.

So it’s a bit difficult, but you know…

Sabrina Chevannes:

So tell me now why your service is different because why aren’t you just another scummy recruiter? What makes what you do so much better than just having a recruiter?

Mitch Gray:

Yeah, first of all, I’m not a recruiter as far as like, I’m not a job placement person at all. I’m not a planner at all.

I fully believe in my approach, A, because I’ve seen it happen. I’ve had over 5,000 employees in my life, and I would say I hand-selected 4,500 of them, so I’ve seen it work.

B, what I love about what I do is I can sit with you and I can say, “Okay, what process are you using? How is it working? Let’s try this. Do you mind if we just try this and see if it works?”

I’ve done it so many times that I know it’s going to work, and every single time someone sees it on the whiteboard, you know — you see it with your clients — the light bulb comes on. It’s like, “Oh my gosh, this actually works.” Yes, and you can do this.

Really, my role is to be a facilitator of idealism and success, and I’m just a guide that walks people through the process. You can do this. It’s not that difficult if you prioritize it and know how to do it.

The reason people think it takes time is because they don’t know how to do it. That’s why they think it takes time.

Again, if I just implement this in my lifestyle, if I just ask my team — and even a small business can do this — “Hey, set up some recruiting incentives for your team. Make sure they’re clear on who they’re recruiting, but if they send someone your way and they stay with you for five or six months, give that teammate a fifty-dollar bonus or a gift card or something,” just to incentivize that. Any small business can do that.

I fully believe in the process because I’ve seen it work time and time and time again.

When I walk someone through that, I even take clients out when I’m working with them locally. Obviously a situation like, say for instance, you and I would be a little different, but if I’m working with someone locally, I’ll go out with them personally and we’ll spend an hour recruiting. They get to hear the conversation, they get to hear me talk to people, and we can do that via video, et cetera.

I do have some clients that are long distance, but we’ll just have those scripted opportunities. “Hey, are you looking for an opportunity?” “Hey, do you know anyone that’s looking for an opportunity?”

It’s just a few of those simple questions that when you see someone working hard that really has a good energy, you simply ask those questions.

What’s crazy is when you ask, they always give an answer. They always give an answer every single time. They either say no or yes, and now you know. But you don’t know if you don’t ask. So it’s just simply asking.

Sabrina Chevannes:

Yeah, I feel like we’ve made the hiring process so intimidating with this conversation.

Maybe speak to the people out there who are just starting out and should probably be listening to this podcast like, “Um, I think I have to hire someone. It’s about the right time to hire an employee maybe. How should I do it?” and they’re just going, “Oh my God.”

Sabrina Chevannes:

Scared of the living daylights out there.

So I guess, when is the right time to hire? I would step back and speak to those people a little bit. When is the right time to hire?

Again, that is such a broad question. There is no right time to hire, but I guess I would like to see if you’ve got any tips for people who are starting out and they’re individuals.

When are the warning signs there that it is the right time to hire, and how would they go about this? Because what we just spoke about is really intimidating. I’ve been doing this for years and I’m still intimidated by the process.

So for people who are new to it, where do they start?

Mitch Gray:

Yeah, it’s big. It’s big, isn’t it? It really is.

I do want to say it’s not unlike anything else in life. It’s new, it’s big, it’s a little bit intimidating, but the more you practice it, the simpler it gets.

I was scared when I first started out. I was really young, 21 years old, running a multi-million dollar business, having to learn to recruit. I’m like, “What do I say to people? I don’t even know what to say.”

You just have to kind of be a fool for a little bit and just try it. Just try it and know that it’s fun.

So for that person, let’s get away from finances. Let’s say they’ve created revenue, they have the resources, they need to hire.

I would say first of all, if you’re a little bit intimidated on having an employee, one avenue you can take is if you can hire based on projects. We haven’t even covered the subject of freelance employees, which is a great way to go.

If you’re a solopreneur and you’re just kind of needing some project work done, it’s a more inexpensive way to go overall, and it’s a little bit easier to hire those people. If you’re kind of dipping your toe in the water of hiring, that’s actually a great way to get some experience.

“Hey, I can hire someone based on a project,” and that kind of eases the discomfort a little bit.

If you’re really ready to hire an employee, my question would be, do you share your business with other people? In other words, do you tell the story of your business?

Well, of course you do. It’s the only way to be in business. You can’t just unlock the door and hope for people to come.

So my guess is that people have the courage to share their business. Let’s say someone opens a pie shop and they’re selling pies. They’re going to share their great pies with other people.

So here’s a really easy step to begin finding someone. Go to your favorite trusted friends, share with them your new pie business, and then say, “Hey, by the way, I’m looking to hire someone. Do you know anybody? I’m just curious.”

So you’re not just having that solo conversation. It’s now about you sharing your passion, and when you can tie that into your passion, it becomes much easier.

Every single one of your friends is going to go either A, “Yes, I do,” or B, “Let me think about it.” Your closest friends aren’t going to say no because they’re enjoying your pie too much, right?

So just ask your friends and practice on your friends. That’s another key. Don’t be afraid to roleplay. Don’t be afraid to get a close confidant and just say, “Hey, I’m learning to recruit. Can we roleplay a little bit? I need you to give me every answer in the book, from telling me no, get out of my face, to yes, I’d love to have a job with you.”

Roleplay that and practice it, but start with the people that you know and then kind of work your way out most of the time.

Again, we go back to the saying, birds of a feather flock together. If you have a friend or a family member who’s a hard worker, has great energy, and will align with your culture, ask them if they know someone that’s just like that. They usually do.

You can start soft and then kind of move out into a little bit more treacherous territory over time. Yeah, that’s the easiest way to go.

Sabrina Chevannes:

I guess if any of your friends do say no, then probably you need new friends because it might reflect on what you’re actually thinking of.

It’s like your best friend saying, “Actually no, maybe your business idea sounds really shady,” and maybe it’s a pitch issue.

Mitch Gray:

I’m totally assuming that they went past that stage, but you’re right. Before you open your business, find all that out first because if you’re at that point, you do not need to be hiring anymore. Like, no, no, no, no.

Sabrina Chevannes:

Well, I think people do that. They dive in.

Sabrina Chevannes:

I think people do that. They dive in because they’re like, “Oh, I’ve got to hire people. I’m going to expand my business,” and hiring a person makes someone feel important. People do that for all the wrong reasons, right?

I think feeling responsible for someone as well is such a big burden. It’s like, I have staff. During COVID, it wasn’t, “Oh my God, how am I going to earn money?” Mine was the fear of like, “Oh my God, I’m responsible for all these people and their livelihoods and their jobs.”

People are like, “Oh, you shouldn’t feel like that’s not your responsibility,” but it is. As a small business owner, it’s my responsibility to keep the business open so that they have jobs.

It’s a big burden, and I think until you’re ready to take that step, it’s something that shouldn’t be taken lightly because as we’ve talked about for the last hour, it’s really, really hard work.

Mitch Gray:

Well, that’s why I would say make sure that you’re working with an accountant or a financial planner of some sort. Again, that’s not what I do, but financially, you’re exactly right. You want to make sure you have the resources to sustain yourself and whoever you’re going to hire for a good long while.

Most planners will say two to three years needs to be your kind of vision. It could potentially be a sales position where you’re basing it on commission. A lot of times that happens, but even still, just make sure.

If you’re in that stage of business, or I’ve seen people that have a team of 10 or 15, their revenue has gone up, their productivity has grown, but they’re kind of like, “Okay, but do I hire five to ten more people?” because that’s scary as well.

Again, have a strong financial planner. Have a strong accountant. Have someone that can advise you and go, “You’re not ready yet,” because you want that honest feedback in that moment. You want them to tell you with clarity, “Yes, you need to hire four or five more people,” or “No, you don’t.”

Then the hiring strategy can work itself out in a way, but until then, make sure you have the resources available because, you know, I’ve failed in business as well. I’ve been in the moments that… back in, gosh, it was 2010-11 in America, we had an economic crisis, and I had to shut down the business. I had to close the doors because that was the smart thing to do.

You talk about having to tell people. For myself, I loved it. It worked for almost a year because it was very difficult.

But we take those quote “failures” in life and we really learn from them. We kind of understand with more empathy and compassion what all this means.

So yeah, it’s more than just taking a dream and turning it into a business. It’s taking a dream, putting application to it, making sense of it, then turning it into a business. If you do it that way, you’ll be successful.

Sabrina Chevannes:

Right, exactly.

Thanks so much, and I want to know also, where can we get hold of your book? Because we’ve learned so much today, I feel like other people are going to be listening and thinking, “I need to know more.” So where can we get hold of your book?

Mitch Gray:

Go to Amazon, especially people that are listening worldwide. It’s available — How to Hire and Keep Great People.

We also have a new course that we just released that’s called How to Hire and Keep Great People as well, and maybe we can put that in the show notes, I don’t know.

But if you connect with me on LinkedIn, I’m all over LinkedIn.

Mitch Gray:

…clients as well. So if anyone’s interested in working with me, I’d love to have an exploratory call first to make sure it’s going to be a fit.

I do that with integrity, and if I definitely don’t think it’s going to work, then I’m going to be honest. But I would love to talk to people about adding some clients too.

Sabrina Chevannes:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think that sounds amazing. I’m going to put all that information in the show notes and say definitely hit Mitch up for any of these hiring questions because it’s been a very complicated call, but a great insight.

I think I’m really going away thinking about a lot of things today. So I just want to say thank you so much for coming on today. You’ve been a great guest.

Thank you everyone who’s been listening, and remember to hit that subscribe, like, or rate button to help support us, and I will be back next week for another episode of No Bullsh*t Talks.

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