How to Make More Money and Have Less Stress with Marcus Hemsley

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So actually, a lot of the personal development isn’t that necessary for me because I don’t need to be motivated to get up in the morning. I wake up and I’m like, “Ah, I just want to do this,” because I love doing it.

Yeah, and that’s kind of cool.

The risk is you don’t know when to stop, and you don’t listen to your body, and you just push through and push through. The next thing you know, you start getting… I started getting, at one point in 2018, I burnt out and got neurological symptoms. I woke up one day and I lost feeling in my arms and legs.

And it was terrifying.

I could still move them, but I couldn’t actually feel them.

That is so weird.

It was awful. Straight to the GP. And then when the GP looks worried, you know there’s a problem.

He’s like, “Yeah, I think you should go straight to A&E.”

He thought I had, I forget the name of it, but it was like an infection in the brain. It wasn’t that.

Went to a neurologist. They scanned me. They said, “No, it’s stress-related. It’s called Functional Neurological Disorder.”

And they’re like, “You know, your body should have been telling you and giving you signs, and it probably was. But of course, I was just getting up and working.”

I decided at the same time also to try a plant-based diet. I decided to hire a PT and meet with him at five…

Is that all at the same time?

Yes.

Oh my God. No wonder your body was in shock.

Like, it’s been… I always say that. Do one thing at a time. Do a small…

You’re like, “Okay, I’m just going to do all these life changes in one.”

Your body was like…

That’s basically what happened.

I don’t know if people can relate to this, but I just get excited by, like, “Oh, I could achieve this. I could achieve that. I want it.”

And then that always gives me energy. The thought of the goal gives me energy.

But I think the thing I’ve learned is actually I’m feeling my thinking in the moment, and I can let go of that as well and just trust that actually there’s going to be a natural sort of excitement towards things.

But I think it comes with age as well because I was lucky. I started my first business in my early 20s, and back then you had that energy naturally.

As I go into my 30s, I started getting those symptoms, started getting problems, so it’s just tuning into the body.

I was chatting to some fascinating entrepreneur coaches recently. She deals with entrepreneurs that are on the edge of burnout…

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And she says there’s a distinction between peace money and anxious money.

And just like Marcus, you’re really good at making anxious money, right? You’re really good at getting anxious and stressed and going out and making money. Anyone can do that. The trouble with that is there’s collateral damage on your body and on your mind and on your relationships and everything else, right?

So, like, this is a really cool idea.

What about peace money?

So mastery is like being in the zone, being relaxed, and then being able to make money, which is true, right? Because business is an intellectual sport.

So actually, when you’re in fight or flight, when you’re stressed, you can think to an extent, but you’re not going to have your best ideas, right?

So, let’s take you for example. Where do you have your best ideas, Sabrina?

In the infinity pool inside the spa downstairs, where I genuinely do. Like, I just lie back and it’s so relaxing. The jets are on, and I’m just like…

And it reminds me of, you know, I’m a big Friends fan. It reminds me of that scene in Friends where Chandler’s like, “Could I be more relaxed?” Or, like, you know, that’s how I feel.

And he’s in the bath. I think Phoebe in his bath is like, “It’s hard to care when you’re this relaxed.”

Like, that’s how I feel. And I just lie back. I just stop thinking about things. And obviously, I don’t have my phone. I don’t have music. I don’t have anything distracting. And these ideas just flood into my head, and I’m like, “Oh my God, that’s amazing.”

And that’s where it happens.

Exactly. And everyone’s the same, right? People say when they’re going through a walk or a holiday, etc. Yet we kind of live in a world where we’re overly processed, overly stimulated, and we haven’t got space to be that creative and get those insights.

Yet it’s those insights, those best ideas, that have probably propelled us to where we are today.

So I’m sort of playing with this idea. We help people on the retreat company with this. It’s like, okay, how can we make that peace money? How can we slow down to the speed of life and get the best ideas and do it in a way that’s sustainable, so our bodies don’t burn out, so we don’t have the collateral damage?

That’s a cool thing to play with.

So, answering your earlier question, yes, I’ve taken a lot on, and it happened slightly accidentally because I thought I had more time than I did.

But I’m trying to walk the walk with it. I’m trying to play with this. So it’s like, okay, I’m coming back in and helping to manage a team of 40-something, running an agency, which, like you say, is stressful because it’s a service business. It’s relationships.

And if you’ve got so many people, so many stakeholders, so many clients, so many employees, people are going to have bad moods. We’re going to misunderstand each other. There’s going to be business things that go wrong. Like, it happens.

So you’re having to deal with those fires. The more people there are, the more fires, the more things that can come at you.

So being able to just have that resilience and actually come to it more in the zone and not sort of have that emotional roller coaster.

I think one of my favorite terms at the minute is emotional sovereignty. That’s sort of my word for the year.

Right, or words.

Yeah, and that was like a phrase you read.

Exactly. I love…

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That because actually, you know, again, this is me being no bullsh*t. Up until quite recently, I would lose my sh*t. I would never scream at team members or anything like that, but I would get quite passive-aggressive. I would be really kind of, like, just actively showing my disappointment in them, and that has collateral damage as well.

One hundred percent.

That book, what’s it called? *The Promise of Giants*. I forget.

I haven’t seen that.

So he’s a brilliant guy. He’s like a sort of ex-MBA star, and he’s a massive dude.

Oh really.

I mean it. The problem you have with being a leader is that you have disproportionate amounts of impact on the world and other people that you don’t realize.

And he uses the analogy of his own body, right? He was at a wedding once, and he never dances. You’re a big guy, you don’t want to dance. You might knock somebody over.

Yeah, I was worried about knocking people flying or whatever. He’s absolutely massive, Shaq-sized dude.

Anyway, he’s at a wedding, he’s a bit drunk.

“Come on, come and dance.”

“It’s okay.”

He started dancing. He let himself go and put his elbows out. All of a sudden he hears a scream. He looks around and this woman’s covered in blood, and he’d broken her nose and hadn’t even felt it.

And the point is, when you’re in a position of leadership, you can cause such a big impact and not feel it.

But that was his biggest fear. He’s never going to dance again after that.

I don’t know if he’s any good anyway, so he might have enjoyed it.

So I think that’s the trouble. We have this disproportionate impact as leaders, as entrepreneurs. We’re also hyper-sped up. Most of us are very obsessive. We’re more likely to be in fight or flight, and we’ve had some success in making anxious money.

But actually, there’s a lot of problems that come with it.

So how do we switch to peace money?

And that’s something I’m playing around with. That’s where I’m at right now, but being quite raw and looking at all the fuck-ups I’ve made, I’ve learned the hard way, to be honest.

Tell me about those fuck-ups. I want to hear.

Oh God, okay. Well, let’s tell the story of why I gave up alcohol.

You know, that is a good story, but I do want you to share that because it’s a good story.

Oh God. So I was best man at my best friend’s wedding, and it was a midweek wedding. He had no money. I’ll do the abridged version because there’s lots of silliness.

But essentially, he asked me to also run the wedding. I would say project-manage it. My head was in agency mode. He asked me to be the wedding planner the night before as well as being the best man because… money.

So I was like, okay. Complaining in my head, sort of in victim mode.

But that morning, I explained to… like when the barman was putting out the chairs for the venue, he said, “Oh, I’ve got a solution. Boom.” Handed me a pint of Stella.

I was like, “This isn’t a bad idea.”

The Dutch courage throughout the day will help me manage the wedding.

You know, I didn’t get too drunk, so I didn’t do a bad job with the speech, but I forgot to eat.

So, full day of drinking, empty stomach.

Gave a brilliant speech. I thought it was good anyway.

But I felt very happy by the end. I’d pulled it off. Look at that.

Of course you just feel happy seven beers in.

Absolutely battered, you know.

Because everything went well.

So they had a UK garage hour at the end.

How old were you? Like 17?

Seriously? UK garage?

Come on. Thirty-two.

Judgment.

You know, reliving my youth.

Anyway, next day I’m hugging the toilet dramatically, and I get a call. It’s one of my team members saying, “Look, yeah, do you mind checking the report that’s about to go to our biggest client?”

And this client paid us half a million pounds a year, £45,000 a month.

And I was like, “Look, I would, but I’m so ill. I just can’t look at this. I can’t think straight. Just get a triple proofread. It’ll be fine.”

I thought it was fine.

The next week, the client rings up. New marketing director.

“Marcus, you’re a data-driven agency, don’t you?”

He’s like, “Yes, we do, Kate.”

She goes, “How the f**k can you say that when the data was all wrong?”

Oh God.

And I knew what happened.

Whoever had copied and pasted all the tables in Excel had pasted them into the InDesign document the wrong way around because in InDesign you can’t do the whole table; you’ve got to do each individual thing.

The thing is, I would say I’m autistic. I have a son who has autism, but I’m pretty sure with numbers, if I see that something doesn’t add up, I just get a weird sense.

I would have noticed that.

But my team didn’t notice it. Kate didn’t notice it.

So she then presented it to the board of this PLC. Of course, the CFO says straight away, “Kate, your numbers don’t add up.”

And she said, “Marcus, I feel I’ve paid you. It’s my first presentation, biggest job in my career.”

Because that’s it.

And for you guys, that was a £450,000 retainer.

£45 million gone?

I wish.

No, £450,000.

I mean…

And that was because I was hungover.

So I was just like, right, that’s it. Alcohol. Done.

You know what’s interesting with that story?

And, you know, even hearing it again, I’ve heard that before.

Yeah.

I’m sitting here thinking, do you know how many other business owners would tell that story and be like, “Well, my team f**ked up. They lost us this client because they put the numbers in the wrong order. How stupid are they? They cost us half a million quid.”

There were so many people who would have told the story that way.

Yeah.

And they would have totally blamed their team and be like, “How incompetent are they? Don’t you know how much I pay them and their salary? They can’t even look at numbers.”

Like, this is what they would do.

And they’d berate them. They’d go into the office and make them feel like crap and guilt-trip them about losing the biggest client.

That’s the difference.

That’s what, when I hear you tell the story, though, there is such an insurmountable accountability in what you’re saying, that you took that ownership upon yourself and felt like, actually, I let the team down because I should have checked that, and then I would have noticed it and we wouldn’t have had that happen.

So you also shouldn’t be so hard on yourself. And the fact that you’ve literally given up alcohol because of this incident, right? And that’s how much responsibility you’re taking for that instead of blaming your team.

So no matter how crap you feel as a leader, just think that I reckon so many more people would have gone to the office and blamed other people.

But at the same time, you’re your worst critic, and you shouldn’t… People always say don’t take as much on.

So it’s obviously joint accountability there. Like, where did it go wrong? Whose fault is it? I say whose fault is it, but obviously a lot of people had a part to play there.

Well, there’s a number of things.

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I try to get to the truth. I think the game of business and life, one of the closest you get to the truth, which is why I love this idea of No Bullsh*t Talks.

So the truth is that, yeah, I’m not 100% responsible, but then nobody is, right?

And I’ve said this to the team actually a few times when I’ve been remotely half-decent. I’m often not, if I’m being honest.

But I say, look, okay, we lost a client. I won’t say their name, but you know them. And I was quite annoyed with the team. And I thought, actually, look, I think it’s almost all their fault, right? But there’s things I could have done differently.

And there’s about six people that were stakeholders in that. So I came in and said, look, 0 to 100 in responsibility, we’ll each take a number. And I don’t really care what it is, but let’s all do that and let’s look at what we can control.

I like that. It’s a really good exercise.

Because it’s true.

It is. Okay, so it might be like, if I was being generous to them, I’d say, okay, I’ll take 25% of the blame.

But do you know what I mean? You can just say, actually, between us. I mean, if we’d had a fallout, okay, right, we can take 50/50 of the blame. Or I can say I’ll take 70%. I should have said this and this to you.

Because the truth is, I can control me.

And actually, that allows me to have that growth mindset.

I think that’s the big distinction between people that get ahead and people that don’t. It’s the old adage of growth versus fixed mindset. You need to always be growing and always learning.

And if you’re not saying, actually, here’s what I would have done differently, it hurts though.

But then that’s why you learn, right?

You know, it’s the same way. Like, you take your hand off a hot stove because it hurts. You’re getting feedback.

But life’s a contact sport, as you know I like to say.

And it is. It is contact.

But I love playing the game.

I just think, like, well, it’s a great exercise. And I think that, like you said, it hurts, but pretty much most things that are good for you hurt.

Like, no pain, no gain and all that.

People don’t want to go to the gym. They want to go, they want to lose weight, but then they don’t want to push themselves to the point where it hurts.

But it’s always been pushing yourself. That’s what causes growth at the end of the day as well.

Yeah, I think you normalize the discomfort.

And I think you say, actually, because the truth is, if you take the easy route now, your life will get harder, right?

So I could take the easy route and not go to the gym later. And I could eat chocolate. I could smoke a cigarette and drink some alcohol tonight.

I could do all of those things if I wanted, and they’d actually be nicer in the short run.

But if I continue that over a period of time, my life will get infinitely worse.

So you just choose your pain, right?

I mean, Mark Manson says that, you know, in *The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck*, right?

It’s just like, there’s going to be challenges whatever you do, so you may as well choose the ones actually, you know, you enjoy and you’re feeling like you’re learning and growing.

But it’s a mature attitude though.

It’s all, I think everything’s all about maturity, right?

Most problems that people encounter, the reason they’re struggling is because they’re not sophisticated enough, right?

My son, if I showed him… He’s 10 years old. He doesn’t know algebra.

If I said, you know, 4x = 16, what does x equal?

He wouldn’t be able to say four. He’d just go, “Don’t know, Daddy.”

And same with most things.

But as he gets older and learns algebra, he’ll be able to go, it’s four.

And it’s exactly the same with most problems in life.

Like, don’t wish it were easier, wish you were better.

And not in a way of, “Oh, I’m terrible.”

But it’s like, okay, how can I learn this?

But again, you can’t do this from low energy.

If you’re in fight or flight and you’re on your phone and rushing around…

I’m exactly the same. If I’m really anxious, fuck all this stuff. Like, I can’t think this clearly because I’m in fight or flight.

And then I fall into a victim mindset of like, “You did this to me,” and, you know, like, “It’s me against the world, and I’ve got to go and rescue a thing now, and I’m fed up of it,” and blah, blah, blah.

And I’d get seduced by those thoughts all the time.

You know, let’s not pretend. You’ve heard me complain a few times.

And I would say victim mindset is probably one of my biggest weaknesses.

And yeah, there’s that model in psychology where you move off the drama triangle and into the winner’s triangle.

So you move away from victim to vulnerable and be like, “Look, the reason I was being a bit, you know, arsey with you earlier is because I’m just really scared about problems in my business, and I took all of that thinking and transmitted it over to you, and it’s nothing to do with you, and I’m really sorry.”

Like, that is much better than being like, “Sabrina, you really shouldn’t have spoken to me like that. That’s fucking out of order.”

But it’s a huge difference.

And it’s a huge difference, but it’s also really difficult to do.

Like what you’ve just said there. It’s so easy to be like, “You this, you that, you that.”

Transforming that blame, that’s easy. Anyone can do that.

You’d be like, “It’s her fault. God, aren’t they incompetent?”

And it’s so easy to just shift that blame to other people.

It’s so hard to take that ownership and to just be like, “You know what? I was wrong.”

And actually, then not only admit that you’re wrong, because you might know you’re wrong deep down inside, but then coming out and saying it to the person’s face and actually apologizing and saying what you’re actually scared of.

That is probably one of some people’s biggest fears.

Terrible. It is, right?

But it should. It does get easier, I think.

I think it gets much easier.

And I think every time you do it, not only does the other person massively appreciate it, massively appreciate, it just makes you grow as a person every single time.

And I think that also, as I’ve started to realize when I’m in that victim mindset, I definitely go, “Oh my God, all this stuff’s happening.”

And, you know, I kind of like be like, “Oh my God, why do I always have to do all this stuff? Why have I always got all these things going on?”

But as you said, everyone’s accountable for some part, whatever the percentage is.

And you have to kind of take the time to do it, and then you learn from it.

Every single time you do that, you grow so much more. You learn so much.

But I guess it’s, again, you saying about you know maturity. It’s a mature thing, but it’s also that short-term versus long-term thing.

And I think that short-term pain, whether it’s going to the gym, whether it’s like saying no to a dessert, whether it’s, like I said, admitting fault, all these things are not pleasant. They’re not fun to do.

And you’d rather just take the easy way out.

But by doing that every single time, the long term is going to have phenomenal results, right? And that’s the difference.

Well, and neither is lifting weights. Neither is not smoking.

All of these things you need to do to grow, like you say.

And it’s not easy. It’s not comfortable.

And again, that’s the maturity thing, right?

Funny story. Rebecca might be listening to this.

She was away the other weekend, and I was supposed to be looking after Zach.

And I may have overslept a little bit.

Who’s Zach?

My 10-year-old son, by the way.

And he snuck downstairs at 5:00 a.m. to watch TV and asked me to go with him, and I said no.

And I woke up about 7:30, and before I could check on Zach, he was running around the kitchen.

He’d got a whole bag of Fruit Pastilles. He climbed up into the cupboard and just had them all for breakfast.

And that’s the thing.

But that’s pure… like, he cannot say no.

I mean, probably lots of people listening, I could scoff a whole bag of Fruit Pastilles.

But imagine if you’re 10-year-old sized.

Well, also, a lot of people listening are probably thinking, “Oh my God, yeah, been there. My kid’s done that as well.”

Yeah, he’s running around the kitchen.

But it’s just like, you know, he couldn’t say no.

And that’s absolutely fine because he’s immature.

So I think that’s the thing.

It’s just a game of maturing.

I think every day is, how can I mature?

And also, you just catch yourself.

Like, I messed up.

When I came in, I was complaining about someone I had an interaction with earlier. It was a bit of a back and forth.

And on reflection, I could have been a bit kinder. I could have been a bit less blunt. I could have been more curious to see why she was taking a position I thought was absurd.

And then after we argued a bit, and then she said, “No, it’s because of this, this, and this.”

Oh yeah, okay. That’s a bit more understandable.

So I came in with condemnation, not curiosity.

And that’s not fair.

But again, I was rushed.

Interestingly enough, going back to the anxious money state, I was actually a bit late for my lunch.

And she caught me as I was walking out of the club, Home Grown.

She’s like, “Marcus, can I talk about this, this, and this?”

And I was just like…

And so much of it is quite innocent.

Like, when I have a spat with Rebecca or a bad word with a team member, it’s often because I’m a bit stressed. I’m in a rush. I’m late. I’m up in my head.

I’m not the best version of me.

There could be a hundred different Marcuses depending on my energy levels and mood.

And if I’m low energy, low mood, I’m going to be quite difficult.

If I’m high energy and high mood, it’s like, “Yeah, cool. Let’s chat.”

And I’ve got to remember that there’s all these different dimensions.

So it’s seeing the innocence in other people’s behavior, not taking it so seriously, but just having that mirror constantly going, “Oh, I’m not consistent. My moods are up and down. I’m feeling my thinking, not what you’re saying.”

And that is just a mature way of being, of growing that awareness.

Which I guess ties into the retreat company that we have, and also ties into perhaps the other two things I’m involved with, with Found and the Million Tree Pledge.

Amazing.

23:53

So talk about… you said, what did you say? You said anxious money and peace money. That was it.

I was like, peace money, right?

Peace money.

So you’ve talked about anxious money, and I think no one wants to be anxious. And you mentioned something earlier and, you know, you said about being in a rush.

For me, that’s the one thing I’ve massively cut down on, which I realized was actually contributing to most of my stress, is being in a rush. Whether that’s deadlines, rushing for flights or a train, or just getting stuff done or whatever.

That rushed energy just causes so many problems, and you don’t think straight, and you’re just all over the place.

So I’ve really, really slowed it down.

And I think taking that… you know, the deadlines, and most deadlines are arbitrary, let’s face it. Even the deadlines we give ourselves, they’re arbitrary.

So, you know, I totally get anxious money. I totally get that.

And I think as entrepreneurs and business owners, we all are naturally adapted to that and can do it.

But what is peace money? Because I feel like that sounds amazing.

Does that mean I can just lie back in my spa and just make money? Because, I mean, that’s what they sell the dream on Instagram, right? Passive income.

But what’s peace money really?

Yeah, I think with a lot of entrepreneurs, right, we’re just naturally driven.

So we could lie in the spa, but that won’t last very long because our mind will be whirring.

So what is peace money?

I’ve got it from a woman called Laura Larios, who’s based out in Silicon Valley.

But for me, it’s what we also teach people on the retreats.

It’s being in the zone where everything flows.

And it’s also being in that state where, in your heart, you know that you’re not frantic, but you’re still getting shit done.

You’ve had a day like that where you’ve been really productive.

Oh God.

Time’s just flowing, and I’ve been really good.

And I’ve enjoyed it.

It’s like the weekend when I feel inspired to write or do something. It just flows.

Oh God, it’s because people aren’t bothering you on the weekend.

You’re not filled with…

This is what… So I had this the other day. I was talking about how I love weekends. I love working on weekends.

And the bank holiday weekend, I worked the whole time and I loved it, and I got so much stuff done.

That’s because clients aren’t emailing you. The team isn’t emailing you. You don’t have to put out fires all the time.

And you’re just in the zone.

So that’s what I would say.

And the structure is… So peace money is like we’ve gone inner speed and actually realized…

My coach said that years ago when I was recovering from burnout.

They were just like, “Marcus, you need to pace yourself.”

“I am pacing myself. I’m literally not moving very fast.”

I don’t know. Inside, I was like…

But it’s kind of true, right?

One of my favorite books is called *Slowing Down to the Speed of Life*.

And there is sort of an optimal speed, right?

Not completely passive, like you’re just sort of half asleep or whatever.

But there is just a nice sort of frequency you can be at where you’re like, “Oh, okay.”

And it’s just having that awareness to catch yourself when you get sped up.

So to your point about getting interrupted by people, it’s not the people. It’s just the fact that there are interruptions.

And then your brain’s chopping, like jumping around, flitting across different browsers or something.

It’s like you don’t have to like completely shut stuff down and go, “No, I mustn’t speak to people.”

I think it’s just actually realizing, “Oh, okay. I’m the observer of my thoughts.”

And as soon as you do that, that sort of disengagement a little bit, you can just watch them slow down a little bit.

And you go, “Okay, what occurs to me naturally to do? What am I excited to do?”

So one of my other coaches helped me write content.

He’s just like, “Look, Marcus, rather than writing stuff for next week, what are you really excited to write?”

If I said, “What’s the topic, Marcus?” where you said, “Really? I get to write about that?”

What would you do?

I was like, “Oh, it would be this, this, and this.”

He goes, “Go write that.”

And that was so easy, and I was loving it.

Now you might be listening and thinking, “Well, yeah, that’s nice. How can you make money from that?”

But if you follow that energy and tap into that…

And it is… what’s the word?

I knew you were going to say that.

It was your ikigai.

That’s exactly what I was thinking of.

If it’s around that, then that can work.

But really, the way I see it is peace money is like you’re just showing up every day and you’re catching yourself when you start getting sped up.

You’re having a shitty thinking moment.

So you’re like, “Oh, that person said this. I’ve got that.”

Because the speed of it speeds up.

I think of it like a rev counter in a car, right?

If you think like zero to 100, revs per minute, thoughts per minute.

Zero to 100 is like me and you chatting now, shooting the breeze.

We’re quite chilled. You know, thoughts are going. It’s not…

But then imagine if we’re talking and my phone rings, and I’ve also been really busy from my last meeting, and I’ve got a pitch straight after this.

Yeah, I’m going faster than that.

That’s like 10,000.

And you can see my animation. I’m flitting around.

And then 300-plus on the rev counter…

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30:24

Humans universally do better when they have less on their mind. That’s why when you’re in the Affinity Spa, you have your big ideas, your big insights.

So the game is going through the day with all this external stimuli, but trying to have less on your mind. It doesn’t mean you have to do loads of mindfulness or whatever—if it helps you, yes—but I think the big thing that we teach people on the retreats is just awareness. It’s just constantly catching yourself: okay, I’ve got a busy head right now… probably not in the right position to make that phone call right now.

Just taking moments to let go, take the foot off the accelerator. If it reverts back to the mean of wellbeing and thinking… my son, when he first wakes up, he’s happy. When I first wake up, I’m pretty happy. Then it’s like my brain starts: you’re late for this, you’ve got that…

This morning it was terrible. My brain was like a dog barking: what about this client, what about that business…

And I was watching it thinking, “I’m glad that’s not me.” And of course it is me.

As soon as you get that disassociation of thoughts—my mum was a CBT therapist before she retire, and they talk a lot about disassociation—just going, “I’m the observer, I’ve got shouty thoughts right now,” and not merging into them.

Going, “That’s how I feel,” versus “Wow, I’ve got really noisy thoughts right now.”

But underneath that noise there’s serenity, there’s peace. That’s also where the good ideas are. So really that that’s what we try and play with.

But it’s much harder in reality. It’s easier said than done. But that’s the game.

You know, it’s hard to make money, but we still try and do it every day.

And like you said, it’s easier say than it’s done I was thinking when you’re talking about you know like you said it’s obvious like this is big deal go calm down it is and but that’s I built like that with everything— everything is actually so freaking obvious when you think about it. But you just dismiss it because when you’ve got so much going on you just that’s the last thing of thinking.

But I’m sure that there are so many people watching this listening to you talking going “Yeah, it’s all well and good you say that Marcus… like you just do you think less and you have less going on and just calmness…

32:43

33:39

34:24

By it’s all an internal game, right?

Because there are two things you can do: you can focus on the task in front of you in this present moment—I’m sending this email, I’m writing this LinkedIn post, I’m having this conversation—and give yourself to it fully.

Or you can take this present moment to go, “Fuck, look at my calendar, look at all this,” and then you feel all the fight and flight and all the emotion that comes with that, and you’re in anxious money. Do you see the difference?

I do. But I still also think like I might have a day where my calendar is busy every day, as a lot of people’s are. It’s just ch-ch-ch-ch-ch like everywhere.

But some days I’m able to look at that and think, all right, I’ve got it today. I think it’s also a preparation thing as well. It’s like if you feel prepared for that thing—again, it’s maybe the lack of rushing—yeah, if I feel prepared then I’m like, well actually I could take this on, I could handle this, this is fine.

But if I feel like, oh my God I’ve got this, this, this, this, this today, actually I need to prep for that call, I need to do this, I need to speak to that person, do this—I used to do this—then I’m like, oh my God, and then I feel anxious.

Yeah, and that’s the difference.

But you see what you’ve done though—you’ve taken a moment, you’ve taken like two or three seconds to four-stack. It’s called four-stacking in psychology. You flit around and say, “Here’s six things I need to do,” but that’s a complete waste of energy and time.

Yeah, but that’s just a bad habit. It doesn’t serve you. It doesn’t mean you’re any better at doing those things.

I remember once a guy passed away in 2006, Dr Richard Carlson, wrote some brilliant books like *Don’t Sweat the Small Stuff* and *Slowing Down to the Speed of Life*. And bit vulnerable here actually, because I used to be in that really anxious money place, and I listened to his audio book *Don’t Sweat the Small Stuff*.

And he started off saying, “You know what? I’ve met some of the most productive high-flying entrepreneurs who live in a constant state of peace and ease.”

And I burst into tears because I thought, oh my God, it’s possible. I didn’t think it was—I thought I had to be stuck in this fucking perennial sort of stress to grow a business.

But he said no, it’s true. And it’s weird—you meet some people that just have an ease about them. Like I met the number four at Google, I’ve met some really, you know, people that are doing a lot—and they just, some people have an aura about them because they’ve mastered the peace money, right? They’re unflappable.

I mean, we’ve just got a really senior guy who’s just joined my marketing agency—

36:44

You know, he was leading a team of 500 at Barclays.

He’s like, this guy’s a real senior player… unflappable like here some bad news straight in the first week this has gone wrong this CL he goes okay cool well let’s figure out how to solve this and for him it’s not a problem it’s a puzzle to be solved and he does it from the sort of like almost like he’s doing a fucking fish Tod do s okay an interesting challenge was.

I’m like why is this happened because I still have that sort of like infantile sort of immature part of me that on some level believes everything should go perfectly but he’s like like he really embodies the life as a contact SP thing.

So you said unflappable or you you describe your guys unflappable but um it’s funny because I I would definitely not describe myself as unflappable but don’t said no I mean that was that was an overly zealous answer okay fine fair.

Enough.

But the end of the day I definitely have got better don’t get me wrong I’ve got better but it’s interesting because a lot of people do consider that about me and so it shows you obviously as different levels but you I think that also the difference is you’ve you see me at my most anxious and panicky because you also while like confident on so when I am stressed I do come to you I leave you these voice notes I’m mad on them and you know healthy/unhealthy it’s a good release and but you know we at least we don’t let each other’s like you know keep in that space like that will be unhealthy.

But like take a situation like you said this guy at bar obviously has to face all this stuff all the all the time yesterday we went to go uh myself and the team at helping run t um I’m going to say this because by the time this comes out hopefully it would have been sorted and we have actually run the event.

But yesterday we went to view the venue to like just you know check out logistics and stuff and then the guy was showing us around was like oh I didn’t even have you in the diary and we were like what and he’s like yeah someone’s booked in on your day it’s not you I’m like you’ve got to be kidding me and he was like oh I don’t remember this I was like just a look back at my emails like it’s confirmed three months ago yeah and he was like and the girls are like what what like was like the events in a month one month time all the speakers have already like you know been preparing they’ve got coaches been paying for all that sort of stuff like everything’s in place the marketing’s back we’ve sold tickets one month to go trying to find a venue in the summer in London for an affordable price good luck with that right and again most people that would have happened to you and they would panic and they’d be like oh my God what do I do the girls are like what we going to do and I was like and we get a drink so the first thing I did was like let’s go get a drink it was sunny sat outside and then we know we ordered a drink I was just on my phone let them chat blah I was doing stuff and I go so what are you going to do I was like well I’ve already just emailed basically every venue I’ve had a relationship before had Point thing and I just like it’s fine I’ve got this idea this idea this idea and like basically solved it within 24 hours as well and it’s like nuts and they were like how are you not you okay with this how are you fine and I was like I think I’m just so used to it there I feel like so many things go wrong in my life which is probably not a good indication of how I manage things probably as as I said we always have to take responsibility but was so many things going wrong on a daily basis it was just yet another thing and and it’s funny because you mentioned the Sudoku thing I actually said that yesterday in the situation cuz they were like oh my God how are you fine I was like you know what I think I said all these things happen to me all the time I said I think I blame myself for being such a nerd as a kid I loved puzzles I was like I loved puzzles as I feel like it’s the universe throwing me just puzzles each time to solve and that’s actually how I do it and and so I think that whilst I do like you know tend to don’t look unflappable to you who I share everything with but to the outside I think sometimes I do because so many things happen like even with the big court case last week and I managed back after that and some bad things happening I think that you know I’ve learned how to handle things a little bit better but take me three years ago I was nothing like that but again it comes from a lot of different things and I think if you do see it as a puzzle I think it is a good thing to look at I think if you see it as yeah and the thing is like having that solutions mindset as well like don’t panic like I said victim mindset all that sort of thing if you just see the problems and I think as humans we are so good at seeing problems and flaws right and we don’t see the great stuff I think that if we switch it and find the great stuff it’s so much easier to handle right I mean I don’t know what your feelings on that but I feel like that’s what we’re all capable of doing.

41:57

We are it’s not in our nature though so humans evolved to survive we evolved to be happy we evolved to you know like be positive when things go wrong actually fight or flights there for a reason it’s to get us out or to get us you know to fight the other person or whatever danger is there.

I think we’re the descendants of neurotic people that survive long enough on the planes of Africa right so it’s true.

Right me you go back 70,000 years from The Plains of Africa walking around if I’m always thinking a sabertooth tiger around the corner I’m really and worried.

And always thinking worst case scenario then when I’m that little bit more prepared when there is a saber C we can run away or we can fight it.

Then the happy go-lucky ancestors are I’m sure fight they’re attacked and they’re killed before they’re able to reproduce so we have a negativity bias that’s been proven in Psychology.

So just accepting the fact that oh okay we evolved to survive this is just the mechanism the hardware we’ve got okay cool.

We also evolved that when we don’t have a busy mind we’re pretty content naturally there’s sort of inate well-being as well so there’s there’s kindness there but I think being to remember that when
there’s uncertainty we tend to jump to worst case scenario.

Because of that that thing evolved that’s a good thing to remember because often like catastrophes right.

So for example I’m putting on dinner tonight just got mess on someone saying oh I can’t I’m running late can you tell me more about this all this sort of stuff oh God what if this happens and straight away.

I’m thinking
they’re going to come in late they’re going to miss the first course this all this sort of stupid stuff always jump to worst Coast scenario.

Because I’m uncertain and that that was really useful like me and you and a new terrain it’s great that I’m catastrophizing so I can be ready to you know W off a predator or something.

These are all useful things or they were for the last 100,000 years of being homeo saan it’s just in the last sort of since industrial era hasn’t been as useful.

But it’s exactly when is it ever that bad all those situations you said if they’re missing the first course even though they miss all three courses what how bad is that ever going to be.

Whenever you catastrophize it’s NE it’s never ever as bad as you think it is and that incident that what example that you’ve given back
in day that’s life or death it was slightly different right that’s that is B of like survival of the Fittest.

Yeah.

But it isn’t like that our business even but we act like it is and this negativity bias is so real like I feel like when I I tried this exercise as well on people when I’m trying to help coach them and I’ll say to them so what’s what’s good in your life at the moment some some a few good things that are going on in your life and..

People just oh they really struggle right and then I’m like okay so what problems have you got and oh I’m do I’m and how long do you have like and they just can read it off and I’m like that’s ridiculous like you can name all these bad things your life but you can’t name
the good things?

And I just think that I guess that’s why gratitude journals are so popular and it’s like focusing on that stuff cuz it forces you on a crappy day it’s like it forces you to to reflect on the good things.

You can use it for your advantage as well it’s one of the things that Elon Musk uses a lot of like very smart entrepreneurs it’s called inversion thinking.

Yeah.

What do I want to create what all the good you know it’s like I don’t really know is okay well what are all the things that could go wrong and then you do the opposite and that’s quite good we’re easier see the negativity so just use it to your advantage but I think once you understand like oh this is the hardware I’ve got that it just takes the personalization out of it your life isn’t shit you’ve just got negativity bias right you you know your life isn’t
terrible you’re just having a moment of crappy thinking and actually when that passes you know a few hours later you might be laughing with your your other half or your son.

I’m like you know moods go up and down it’s never that terminal the thing is there’s an illusion that when you’re in a really bad mood things seem really terrible.

Yeah.

And you and and we can we kind like focus on the present moment and go God my life’s crap but it wasn’t it wasn’t crap this morning it w be crap this evening and I think that’s just a thing of maturity and growing awareness and just learning this stuff you can just doesn’t make it any easier it still hurts but you can go oh okay this is temporary and as soon as you realize it’s temporary and it passes
without you able to do anything you take your foot off the accelerator that’s how you can fall back into more of a relaxed state which means you more like to make peace money and you can trust because
you’re a kickass entrepreneur already you’re still going to get stuff done you know you have to keep whipping yourself and forcing yourself and you’re not feeling it you know that yeah okay today
I’m not ready at the RAC it’s fine tomorrow you might be if you just let go a little bit more let go or be dragged.

46:10

Yeah and I feel like you know all this stuff is so useful and it’s exactly what you guys cover in the retreat and so but I always feel like when you say Retreat few things come to my head it’s like yoga and you know all the woo stuff stuff is generally what they do Retreat and I feel like in personal development self-development industry as you said there’s so much bullshit like what makes you guys different and and what bullshit do you want to call out in the personal development SL Retreat world and all that sort of stuff cuz I feel like there’s a lot.

So what makes the approach to Emma and the guys that are their retreat business like what makes us different is we’re we’re attractive so we turn down the noise in your head whereas most personal development is additive so it’s going to say hey Sabrina come on my personal development weekend and I’ll give you 10 new things you need to learn and you need to start up in the morning and do ice baths and then Hof breathing and all this sort of fuck it up I’ve got so much to do already like it’s adding lots of extra rules and things to do and noise into already fucking busy head whereas like you’ve already said like you have your best thinking when you have less on your mind cool we’ll teach you to have less on your mind and then from that place you know what to do you know how to prioritize your schedule you know how to grow your business like we can’t help you to do it that you know whether getting up at 4:00 a.m. and doing a nice bath is right or lying into late and starting later you know cuz you’re fucking brilliant when you’re not in a really busy mind stressed in fight or flight you’re the expert on you so we don’t turn up and say hey Sabrina here’s some things you need to do it’s what hey Sabrina let’s spend the weekend just exploring how you can turn down the volume in your head slow like slow down to the speed of life and still be really productive like one of the favorite exercises I have I we do on the retreat which I love is the don’t care exercise.

Right.

Which basically you really you get you the whole weekend getting in the zone then you get someone to coach you and you basically say what do you want to achieve and the other person has to interrupt with tell me more or don’t care depending if it if they’re making an excuse it’s just like oh I I would do this but I’m a bit nervous don’t care I just it shuts down that oh that’s just I’m fing the thingy and there’s nothing actually stopping her shit.

Cuts out the bullshit.

Whereas if you start saying you know what okay Tuesday at 4:00 I’m going to call this person brilliant tell me what what you’re going to say when I already listen to them make sure that you know we’re right fit for their company BR tell me what but I don’t know actually maybe it’s not a good time for them just so it’s not just a retreat to like be Zen I think that’s the problem with a lot of Retreats is that you know lots of yoga and smoothies there’s a little bit of that as you know but it’s actually about slowing down to the speed of Life getting in the zone and then going back in a more resilient place so you can actually make some money from a peaceful State that’s sustainable because entrepreneurs will never stop we’ll always be doing something we’re wired differently.

I feel you know there’s that book called driven and it talks about how there particular genes that lots of entrepreneurs have so once you accept that you’re always going to be doing something is how can I do it about the the collateral damage how can I do it sustainably and having a lot of fun with it because when you’re in the zone it’s fun right it’s like when you play a really good game of chess or play a great game of football and times SE to I remember I used to be captain my basketball team there’s a couple of games i’ always remember one game I was playing rubby once where time seemed to slow down and it just like every play the team did just seemed to work we’re all in we were all sort of in sync I don’t know why we all sort of fell into the Zone into that piece money by the end of it we’re exhausted but I didn’t feel like I was pushing myself I was that and then we won those games and it just seemed to happen you see that with great performances in art and you know in sport it’s like how can we get into that and I think what we showed people is that some your natural state because children have that a lot they’re playing they’re in the zone and what takes us away from it is a busy frantic mind of lots of noise lots of phones all the rest of it so we just showed people how to slow down to the speed of life and it tends to work out pretty well.

50:03

So I want to actually ask you personally about that now because I feel like you’ve given some great advice you’ve told us what you guys do to help other people but what are you doing to help yourself because you mentioned a couple of things you’ve mentioned that you were very much
you you want you took a distance from the business and you out of the business but now you jumped back in.

Yes.

And you also said that you’ve not handled you
know your staff in terms of you VI but so how have you managed your own internal like speed and like slowing
down or what have you done for yourself because why are you suddenly back in the business now like how has that affected things cause you know you you help other
people but are you helping yourself.

Yeah, variably right and every day is learning deal actually beginning this podcast the first we started doing the first three or four minutes I to stop say spring
actually I’m not feeling I’m really in my head thinking about my answers I don’t want to do that I want to really slow down and just be real with you because I was worried about if I give this answer what would you know Rebecca
think if I said like this and what would my friend think if I described myself as an entrepreneur not be like what the fuck am I doing so I stop give me a second right brief cool.

Now let’s play
from that state so I’m still playing with it as un mastered it but the fact I’m like calling bullshit on the noise in my head and going it’s too noisy give
me a second let me slow down now I can handle it I’m there but now I fucked up all the time I fucked up this morning when I was interacting with someone at
homegrown and you know she caught me on the way out I had an argument with side disagreement and then I caught my myself to sorry that so I’m in a rush you know
right okay tell me what’s going on with you okay all right I understand now sorry I think like that.

So it’s just a game of constantly catching yourself but
yeah no I I stepped out of the business because the business was running really well with a senior leadership team and the last year wasn’t so good for us so I’ve come back in and there was some
stuff that the guys had done which was I wouldn’t have done that and I had to had to be careful you know to not piss lots
of people off and I probably did cause it’s hard to hide your dismay at points so I’m constantly learning I think the fact that I’m in the game trying to get
better I’m trying to grow that maturity trying to catch myself means that I will in the same way that like you know I’m exercising every day from this year and
there are some days I can only do maybe 50 press UPS because I’m really fucking rush but every day I’ll try and do something and I’ll bugger it up and I’ll
you I’ve got gol’s elbow now it’s always up and down but the fact you turning up each day and trying to grow that awareness and you’ve got that
distinction I think that’s the thing like I know about the distinction I’m calling it anxious money or peace money that I can be in the zone more and try
and get them to that flow state that that’s that that’s the way I’m handling it so the answer is variably I’m not a master yet um but all I can do is just
keep learning and getting better right you just need that feedback loop I think that’s the thing like that’s how that’s how compounding Works everything’s a fly
should be a fly well if you want exponential growth.

Yeah.

You think of like 80/20 rule anything that’s top of that Proto curve that’s like really
extreme is cuz they’ve got they’re powered by feedback loops that’s it but you need feedback to get the loop and a lot of people they don’t they they don’t they sort of go through life linearly
because never ask for feedback right so the old version Marcus would had interaction with that person at homegrown and would have been like well
fuck her she’s wrong don’t care I would have started the podcast and G yeah I’m back in my head but fuck it I’m going to keep going yeah you know I don’t care you know like I’m going to keep and it’s
just like no no I need to stop and catch myself and just learn and giving myself feedback getting it from other people that’s the only way you can do it and
again it’s growth mindset versus fixed mindset it’s maturity but yeah variably and failing Lots but doing with smile in
my face and getting back up right I’m getting tackled on the pitch heavy contact getting back up and going fine missed the goal bollocks taking another
shot right you know footballs have to go play another game un he get bench yeah get go play the lower leagues then right but it’s uh like John Terry missing that
penalty in the 2008 champions league final like that’s he he said he still had about it to his but he had to go out and still play you
know.

But that that’s it so say if you do get benched right what’s that what does that look like for a business owner a guessing looks like scaling down your
business or like you know cutting back in some ways taking on smaller clients before because but you can always still build back up I think that’s what people
don’t realize they see those setbacks as a failure.

I think there’s too much pressure on that saying like oh you’ve had to let go some of your staff you’ve had to do this but like you said you
could always build back up you could always you could always get bigger you can always make more money but sometimes it’s right to step back to go back up again.

You’re a poker player now very
successful on you know World Tour Etc.

I mean there was very debatable but you know I I play poker.

But yeah I play poker not as well as you but as I was
saying well he a chip in a chair right we’ve all had our Stacks forgive me people don’t play poker but we had our Stacks go from like almost nothing.

Yeah.

And then you go in on one final and then you build it back up.

Yeah.

And as long as you’re a lot as long as you’re breathing there’s that choco Willet video good
which just like everything bad ever happened you just say good you know good it’s an opportunity to get better and actually you know what like this year the beginning of this year has been
really tough in business for for Fountain for me Etc.

I’ve learned so much more this year than I did in the last
year and a half being out the business yeah loads more like I I got slightly better at networking when I spent my time networking in London for the last
year and a half but no I’m I’m so much sharper now I’m better at closing the pipeline quicker right because I’m going
out and finding advice to solve real business problems in real time I’m better at winning back lost clients I’m better at upselling cross selling expansion selling I’m better at lead gen
and I’ve got better strategies than we ever had before because it’s it’s been harder you know the Market’s Contracting
therefore I need to get better and the nice thing is is that a sort of bit ruthless way but in a year’s time when things bounce back there’ll be fewer
competitors for me because not everyone survived and I’m even sharper than before so it’s good.

So I’ve got a question for you then God so you just
said you’ve learned so much more on this last year and a half obviously massive progression personal growth all that sort of stuff that’s amazing but
obviously before that you were doing much better as a business rolling in the money like would you rather have a profitable year for your business or
that growth of the personal growth again if you had to repeat that next year.

I’d like to vary each year.

I knew you would say that.

You can’t both you can’t be Hing here i’ would like to know like which one D on is would you do again if you could do it next year bear in mind like you’re not
you’re not going Bank El you’re not like but which one would you actually prefer.

Like a really good money year like that you’re doing stuff but actually you just you’re just a bit me but whereas like
you grow massively but you know you up losing stuff or whatever you but but it’s really tough at least.

I would like to repeat the shit because I reckon I do I
could do it better because wow I fucked up with a lot of things and still had I had moments and I fell out with my co-found as a points I messed up and had to go back b b said look I was just
scared of like this business really shrinking that’s why I got you know I got in that me and I learn a lot and I’d love to just re rerun the year with
what I know now and I’d be like i’ be a lot better I’ll be more peace energy so it would be better if I’m being really honest the year when I was out like out
but just networking lot and you saw me having a great time a network diners and parties like I had a really good time but part of my heart felt like I was
abandoning the business a tiny bit part of me felt like I wasn’t growing I kind of knew that deep down but it was covered up with lots of late nights so
late nights cuz I gave up drinking but out in my house causing trouble meeting brilliant people learning from just conversations and connections but you
can learn from conversations you listen to podcast but you know life’s the best teacher isn’t it right being really in the thick of it your business is you’ve
lost a few clients you know you’re not paying yourself this month you have to let a couple of people go like it looks bad you know you’ve done a where to turn
it’s like right okay let’s settle down let’s make a plan let’s follow that plan.

Wow I feel like that’s I was I’m quite impressed that you picked that which is
uh which again shows you like the there’s no monetary value on growth there there exponential monetary value I guess on on personal growth which is…

58:04

Amazing so I guess parting words I’d like to know what your advice is for other business owners out there who are looking to grow personally as well and and just to like if they if they feel they’re up in their heads a lot and they see themselves and you know anxious money how do they get to the peace funny side.

Yeah, I think Parton words looked like the most important person in your business is customer you can connect with them so much better
when you’re not in your head and you’re in the room and you’re with them and you’re listening to them from that peaceful plays from peace money, right?

You can serve them better you will see opportunities that you will miss as an opportunity cost of being busy and stressing up in your head and then over a long enough period of time there’s
that collateral so short of also coming on our retreat but won’t be a same as plug like there’s some brilliant books like slowing down to the speed of Life
stop thinking start living like just to with some of those books as a brilliant coach that I’ve worked with called Mike O’Neal that teaches this sort of stuff Laura larus I should shout her out she
gave me the distinction between peace money and anxious money but really just realize that it is possible to not
feel this stress not have this burden and to be super successful because that’s the drink, right?

Yeah a lot more money and success and a lot less stress
and if we can find a way to do that whilst enjoying the ride of course like there’ll be moments where it’s shit it hurts but I would still lace up and play
football even if I know going there’s going to be a few crunching tackles right life is a contact sport but I’m going to go out and play cuz I love the
fucking game even get bruise and I still walk through a smile in my face having banged a few goals in and if not I’ve learned exactly score next time.

I love
that and I’ll put all the links to those things that you mentioned in the show notes and I actually I will give you guys a Shameless card because I’ve been on your retreat and it’s done me wonders
and that’s the reason why I am able to handle things a lot better and that’s the reason why I feel a lot calmer so I’m more than happy to give you guys old Shameless plug and we weekends are
brilliant and I’ve loved it and I think that any business owner who feels a little bit stressed who feels like they’re up in their head should spend
the weekend doing that um and because I thought that’s brilliant thank you.

We return we’ve done too.

So yeah and I’ll probably come back
again but thank you so much for today honestly I feel like I’ve learned those as well and I think that’s why we both are big on personal grow and personal
development but these called conversations they’re always so insightful and no matter how many books you read or whatever there’s always
something you can learn from people and I’ve I’ve learned something from this conversation I think like it’s been really insightful so I hope that everyone else has too.

So thank you Marcus for coming.

How to Make More Money and Have Less Stress with Marcus Hemsley

How to Make More Money and Have Less Stress with Marcus Hemsley

In This Episode...

About Marcus Hemsley

How to Make More Money and Have Less Stress with Marcus Hemsley

How to Make More Money and Have Less Stress with Marcus Hemsley

In This Episode...

About Marcus Hemsley

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