Hi everyone.

Welcome to this week’s episode of No Bullshit Talks.

And I’m so excited to have my guest today on the show, Jennifer Shahade.

I felt like I should be using your chess title, which is Women’s Grandmaster, Jennifer Shahade.

But that is not just who you are.

You’re a professional poker player, but there are no titles in poker, which we’re totally going to come on to because that’s so weird.

And you’re a podcaster, you’re an author, you run book clubs, you do a million things.

How would you actually describe yourself?

Well, that’s a great question.

You started off… yeah.

Well, I tend to, when I meet someone, I often say that I’m a professional chess and poker player.

A lot of times I leave out poker depending on the situation, because that’s a bigger conversation.

I am a PokerStars ambassador as well, and then I play poker and I’m a poker podcaster.

But just like in chess, it tends to be a few different things that I do, not just one single thing.

So I often say I work as a professional games player.

And then I also talk about working in female empowerment.

Okay, so you actually prioritize chess over poker in introduction-wise.

Yeah.

That’s interesting because I also said I didn’t know how to introduce you.

You do so many things.

How would you describe yourself?

Would you also say you’re an entrepreneur?

What would you…

Maybe, although I feel like I don’t manage people.

So I think entrepreneurship is really… and that’s something I’m probably going to have to start to do more in my career.

Because everything that I’m doing is kind of blowing up.

And my response to that tends to be just to work harder.

And I do have some people that I hire to do certain things.

But in terms of full-time team members, that’s something that I kind of associate with most entrepreneurs.

Maybe something, definitely a skill set that I’m looking to build for sure.

And then I think author and speaker is really a good catch-all too.

Because I do so much speaking and hosting.

And then writing is one of my first loves.

So yeah, it’s hard to kind of get by without a lot of slashes.

Yeah, well that’s what I was going to ask you next.

Obviously it was so difficult to introduce you because you do so many different things and pinpoint a title for you.

But then it’s like, which… I know you’re going to say I can’t answer this question… but which of those things do you think you love the most?

I like writing and speaking, probably.

Yeah, I like them both.

Because I like the idea… I mean, you know, I’ve been a commentator for many, many years.

I’ve done so many commentary sessions.

But I actually think that what I excel in is slightly more curated content.

Just because I’m not always that great on my feet.

I’m not bad.

I mean, I’ve worked at it for so many years.

I’ve learned some tricks.

But I’ve never considered myself the sharpest, quickest thinker.

I think I do really well when I’m able to structure things and come up with a creative way to present information.

And just dole it out in the right quantities.

I think that those are actually my strengths.

So when I give a one-hour talk or I write an essay, I’m able to think about all these insights and visuals and ideas that I have and say what’s most important.

How can I distill this to make people find it interesting?

I think that is where a lot of my talents lie.

And that’s why in my podcasts, they’re heavily edited by my husband, who’s an amazing editor.

And I think that’s why they’re really good.

Because I’m not the best with completely unscripted stuff.

I tend to use a lot of empty words, just like most people.

Most people.

But you know, I also work with somebody like Grandmaster Maurice Ashley, who just speaks as if he’s writing a book on improv.

He’s literally giving a speech in improv.

That’s not me.

But I’m warning you, Jan, because I don’t have a husband who’s an editor.

It’s okay, my podcast is not going to be heavily edited.

No, no, no.

It’s also different because when you’re the guest, I think sometimes it’s a little easier because somebody’s prompting the questions to you.

When I’m the host, I usually find that sometimes I just bumble a little bit.

Well actually now I’m kind of hoping you will so that I have these little moments to haunt you forever on my podcast.

You’re kind of nervous that I’m joking or not.

But no, we’re going to move on to your chess career, I guess, first.

Because I guess that’s how I know you to start.

So I know you as a pro chess player.

You are a Women’s Grandmaster, which basically defines you as one of the top female players ever in the world, which is kind of cool.

But tell me about your love for chess.

When did you fall in love with the game, and what kind of journey would you describe you’ve taken through it?

That’s a great question.

I think that I really fell in love with the game.

I have a very vivid memory of Brazil when I was 15.

That was my first…

International tournament.

And I got invited kind of on a coincidence.

I wasn’t that high rated, but I think it was during the holidays, so some other people had declined their invitations.

Some people didn’t want to go all the way to Brazil.

It was during the school year.

I don’t know all the reasons, but I got an invite.

And my brother came along, who’s a very strong chess player, was already really good at the time.

He was already like a very strong master, maybe even a senior master.

My father came, who’s a FIDE master.

And I wasn’t that good, but I was starting to get better.

And I remember being so nervous before my first game that I felt like I had to throw up.

Like the quintessential butterflies in my stomach.

And I played a fantastic game.

And that, of course, was a wake-up call to me that nerves aren’t a bad thing.

That being nervous can actually be a strength.

And then I think even more importantly, I started to play all these aggressive, swashbuckling games.

And in some of the breaks in the tournament, I would go to my room and I would look at this chess problem book.

I think it was by Chernev.

And I just felt really connected to chess as an art at that time.

And it kind of clicked for me.

That chess isn’t just a competition, it’s also an art.

Which is a line from The Queen’s Gambit.

But this really did click for me in Brazil.

And also what clicked for me is that chess is an opportunity to see the world.

And to meet people that I wouldn’t have met otherwise.

I was really unpopular in junior high school.

I was bullied a lot.

In high school, I was kind of more of an in-betweener.

Like I wasn’t bullied anymore because people thought it was kind of cool that I got to travel the world to play chess.

But I was not popular either.

I was just kind of weird in a good way.

But the idea of going to all these discotheques and parties with music and meeting people from all these countries, it was something I’d never experienced before in my life.

And I couldn’t believe it.

I was accepted.

People were really interested in me.

And yeah, it was a very formative experience.

So I loved chess, and I loved the culture that it introduced me to.

You’ve just told me a bunch of things that have just shocked me.

Because I’m just like… I know… I don’t know when I met you.

Maybe 10 years ago, I feel like, maybe more.

A little bit more than that.

I think maybe in…

But I don’t remember.

I think definitely before St. Louis.

Yeah, no, I think it’s been about 12 years maybe.

Something like that.

Maybe London at something in London.

Probably, yeah.

Like at Malcolm’s shop or something.

And you know, it’s been a while.

And ever since I’ve known you, you’re like the cool one.

You were always the coolest person in chess.

The fact that you were bullied in junior high shocks me to the core.

And the fact that you were also scared, and you said at 15 you were not that good.

I’ve always only known you as this US Women’s Champion.

You’ve always been super good.

So it shows you, I guess, that everyone has to start somewhere.

And I guess that’s why The Queen’s Gambit resonates with a lot of people.

And probably does resonate with yourself in that sense.

You know, she wasn’t that good when Beth Harmon first started.

She turned up to a tournament and she was a little bit weird, a little bit intimidated.

And she got good very quickly.

And I guess that’s probably how you can relate to stuff like that.

But I love the thing about traveling.

Like you said, new cultures.

I’ve also had the same thing.

I wouldn’t have met you if I hadn’t traveled as much.

I’ve managed to go to 81 countries.

And I would love to go to every country in the world.

That’s my aim.

I don’t even know if it’s physically possible.

COVID has definitely put a dampener on that plan.

But 81 is still pretty impressive.

I think there aren’t many people who have done that.

And I would never have gone to even a fraction of those if it wasn’t for chess.

So yeah, me too.

Me too.

I totally agree with that.

And I had no idea you went to 81 countries.

That’s amazing.

I don’t think I’ve been to nearly that many.

I haven’t written them down for a while.

When I was a kid, I was very interested.

Maybe a teenager, because my first experience abroad was that tournament in Brazil.

I was obsessed with writing them down and counting them when I was a kid.

But yeah, it was just the opportunity to go to a new country.

It just felt like such a gift.

I was grateful for it.

I got a scratch map.

That’s what I did as well.

And I thought it was so fun to do it.

And that’s how I could tell.

But I guess you’re in the US, so there was less reason to travel because you had a lot of opportunities in the US to play.

So that’s probably why.

But what I wanted to understand is when you started playing poker and what got you into that.

Because you started with chess first from what I understand.

So how did that develop?

I know there’s definitely a huge correlation between the two.

There are so many people who do both.

But you do both at a very high level.

When did your poker journey start?

You know, it was very similar to my chess journey.

Chess I was introduced to when I was like five or six, but I didn’t really fall in love with it until I…

Was in high school.

And I would say poker was a bit similar.

My brother introduced me to it because he was a professional.

And I enjoyed it.

I enjoyed playing what we call sit-and-gos on PokerStars.

And, you know, being good even though I had just started.

Because at that time there was a poker boom, so really anyone who had learned some basic strategy could have an edge very quickly.

But I was working on my book Chess Bitch at the time.

And I was really getting passionate about writing.

So I didn’t get fully hooked on poker until a little later.

One thing I found about poker during those times when I first learned was that it was a very different culture than chess.

I feel like it was very based in Los Angeles.

And was very much about who you knew and how much money you had.

And a lot of stuff that I was not that great at navigating.

So in poker I didn’t really have the network I needed to make inroads.

And I wasn’t really willing to put in the time that some of my friends were, because I was also busy with writing.

So I just kind of dabbled in it for many years.

But then I got invited to… I ended up winning it actually.

It’s funny because, you know, I’m the director of US Chess Women now.

And the thing that actually got me more hooked on poker was something that PokerStars was doing at the time called PokerStars Women.

They did it only for a little while because then I think they wanted to build their women’s programming more globally into the brand rather than be a separate entity.

But for a little while they did something called PokerStars Women, which was these special tournaments and events and promotions to try to send female players around the world.

And because I was a writer and chess coach, I never had a lot of money to try to qualify for a £10,000 tournament.

Because in order to qualify for a £10,000 tournament, you need to use a few thousand dollars to try to satellite in.

That was a little tricky.

But then they started doing these women’s events, which were only a couple thousand dollars.

So now all of a sudden you could satellite in for $200–$300.

And of course you could satellite for even lower.

But the thing about that is then you have to put a lot of time into it.

Because every time, the way it works is like suppose you’re trying to go from $10 to a $10,000 tournament, then you need to spend a week grinding the $10 up into $100 and so on.

It’s definitely feasible.

But for somebody who had a job and a lot of other stuff going on like me, this was an easier path.

And I did it.

I got a chance to go to Monaco, to the Bahamas, to Madrid, all through these PokerStars Women initiatives.

And that introduced me to all these people.

And I kind of got more passionate about the game.

So it’s funny, looking back on it, it’s like a precursor to some of the stuff I’m doing with US Chess Women.

Although of course that’s with kids, not with grown-ups.

It’s mostly with kids.

It’s with kids and grown-ups.

But PokerStars Women was exclusively for women, of course, because kids can’t play poker.

Or they can’t play in casinos.

Yeah, that’s… I thought that was incredible.

But you actually got to travel from both.

That means from the chess and the poker.

Yeah, and I think also the travel gets you more passionate.

Because you meet people.

At the end of the day I still played more online than I played live.

But the live was about meeting the people that would help give you a community so that you could understand poker better.

And just enjoy these places and the lifestyle that you’re aiming for in that world.

I actually remember we met up in London and we went out for dinner and everything.

And I think you were on your way to playing that… forgive me for not remembering the exact name of it, but it was that Chinese one.

And you actually won it.

And I remember you were telling me you were nervous.

You were playing one of the biggest tournaments of your life.

And then suddenly I had dinner with you one week, and the next week you’re front page of all these news going, I won £100k.

Like oh my God, that’s so cool.

So for me it was like listening to a fairy tale.

You were just here one minute, oh I’m not sure, I’m nervous, and I’ve got this big event.

And then next minute it’s like I won it.

Obviously that’s kind of surreal for me.

But what is that real journey like?

How is it going from thinking I can’t afford $2,000 to enter this tournament to winning £100k?

That’s a fairy tale, but you’ve done it.

Talk me through that.

That must have been crazy.

Well, I feel like it’s a fairy tale in a way, but you…

Also have to consider that usually the poker fairy tales told are like going from $20 to $2 million.

This is still, you know, a little bit more realistic, right?

So what happened was I was one of the best players in this variant called Open Face Chinese.

So I had some people who also staked me for part of the tournament.

I put some in, and they put some in.

So that’s why it sounds like it was a €10,000 tournament, but I didn’t put up all the €10,000.

So that makes it a lot easier because if you’re skilled enough, people will buy what you call stakes in you, or percentages.

So they buy like a piece of you, as if it’s like a corporation.

And then when you win, they get a percentage, and you get a percentage.

So yeah, that really makes it easier.

But yeah, it’s true that, like a lot of people who work really hard, not everyone, but a lot of people who worked really hard, I felt like just in general I was working so hard in chess and in poker that that was the reason I was able to start playing more and traveling more.

Because I was able to find ways to increase my income, my bankroll, so now I could spend a couple thousand dollars in a tournament without having to stress about it in the same way as when I was in my early 20s or mid-20s.

So you’ve been a pro in both.

You are a pro poker player and a pro chess player.

Those two clearly correlate, and there’s a lot of talk out there about how they do and how they influence each other.

From your experience, is being good in one helpful to the other?

And which one do you think is more influential on the other as a game?

I think that chess and poker are kind of converging.

Oh really?

Because I feel like poker is becoming a little bit more like chess, because the way people study the game using what they call solvers and just their rigorous approach to analyzing situations that they’re bad at and getting better at it is very much like what a chess player has been doing for many years ever since the advent of computers in chess.

And chess is becoming more glamorous, with the top chess players and the top chess personalities having agents and managers and sponsorship deals.

That’s so similar to the way it was in poker during the boom.

So I actually feel like in some weird way, they’re converging into the same game.

Pretty soon it’ll be the same game.

So if you were to give advice to anyone who wants to play poker or get better at poker or get better at chess or get better at both, what advice would you give them to do well?

You mean to be a professional or to just enjoy it?

I mean just get better at it.

To improve it.

I feel like a decision to go professional is not necessarily… I don’t know, you tell me.

Did you decide you’re going to be professional?

Did you just keep playing, got better at it, and then it suddenly became an option to go professional?

I feel like you don’t make an early decision, and you work your way up there.

I just mean in general, if someone’s playing chess or they’re playing poker, is there a way that they can study each that will actually help better both of their games, for example?

Because as you said, they’re converging, right, in terms of how they are.

Yeah, I think that being really deliberate is important.

Thinking hard about what you’re going to study and thinking critically about it.

I think that’s important.

Thinking about the quality of the hours that you put in rather than the quantity, I think that’s huge.

I find that writing really helps me to review that I understand what I’m trying to get at.

Reading real books I think is pretty helpful too, because it kind of forces you to slow down and not just click through things or absorb too much data at one time.

I think that is the hard part.

It can be easy to just absorb so much data and information that you’re not actually thinking on your own.

And if you’re not thinking on your own, it’s really hard to get better at chess and poker.

Because it’s not just absorbing stuff.

It’s also critically thinking about what you’re taking in and how to get better at the things you’re not good at.

I think what you just said about quality versus quantity is huge.

And it’s applicable to everything.

But that’s it.

I see so many people studying something and they’re doing it all day every day, but they’re not really studying the right things.

And like you said, you could spend one hour being really specific and working on one area of your game, and actually that would probably be better than 10 hours of just generalized watching YouTube videos half-heartedly and things like that.

So it’s kind of insightful to hear that.

And you were saying that what you’re doing now with US Chess is reminiscent of what you thought PokerStars was doing with PokerStars Women, but obviously for kids.

Talk us through what you’re doing at the moment.

Because I see you doing so many things for US Chess Women.

You’ve got so many great classes on.

So talk us through what you’re doing at the moment, what your plans are, and what you envision being the future of US women’s chess.

Well, my vision for US Chess Women is to…

Bring more girls and women and gender minorities into chess.

And also to just have a different approach about building community through chess.

And not just obsessing over, you know, we need to get all the best players we can.

Although I think that’s really great too, to have really good players who are passionate about the game.

Because the more you put into chess, the more potential you can get out of it as well.

Like all that travel and, you know, exceptional success that I mentioned earlier.

But there’s also so much value that can be gotten by people learning the game and using it as a networking tool and as a concentration tool.

So a lot of the things that we do are with that in mind.

How do we reach the most number of people?

So we do a lot of events, which you have been a part of many times, where the girls have a social event.

So they all learn about chess, but they also get to meet one of their role models.

And we laugh.

And sometimes I do events with girls from Kenya and the United States.

And you’ve been to a lot of those, where they meet each other and they go into breakout rooms and talk about their chess study plans, their holiday plans.

And then they end up playing each other in a blitz tournament at the end of the event.

So it’s just what I was talking about, my first experience in Brazil.

Chess is like a beautiful game and also a way to unlock experiences that you might not get otherwise.

Experiences and people that you wouldn’t get to meet otherwise.

Yeah, I want to explore that because I think it’s great.

I mean, it’s there in chess, but it’s not equally accessible to everyone, right?

I want to explore making that more of the whole point of what we’re doing with chess.

See, that’s so beautiful.

It’s so refreshing to hear.

You’re right, I’ve been to so many of them.

And I loved… I think we did a Christmas one with the Kenyan and US girls.

And that was so cool.

There were so many countries there.

And the girls were so sweet.

They were wishing each other Merry Christmas and talking about the different weather across the continents.

And it showcased the reason why I play chess.

And yes, the game is a beautiful game.

But it’s the fact that you get connected with people from all different cultures from all over the world and learn so many different things about all these different people.

And consistently meeting fascinating people from everywhere.

That’s exactly the reason why I kept playing and kept traveling.

And the fact that you just said it’s not accessible for everyone, but that’s what you want to make happen, that’s so nice to hear.

Because I know that in certain parts of the world, and you can even see in the UK, that sadly chess can accidentally become elitist.

You know, chess tournaments can be expensive to travel to.

So like we were talking about, it costs a lot of money to go all around the world.

I know that my parents were telling me how much money it cost to send me to different junior tournaments, go to the World Youth Championships and European Youth Championships over here.

And it just adds up.

And if it’s going to be just a hobby, it’s such an expensive hobby.

And if you’ve got other kids or doing other things, it’s a lot.

So the fact that you said to make it accessible for everyone, I think is great.

Because chess is such a beautiful game.

One of the only games in the world that you can play anywhere in the world, any gender, any race, any age.

And there shouldn’t be a financial boundary to be able to play this game or any other reason why you shouldn’t have access to it.

So I think that the reason why you’re doing it is beautiful to me.

Thank you.

And yeah, I mean there’s so many people around the world that are kind of on board with that.

Mission.

I mean, from Armenia having chess in schools, in every public school, to a lot of New York schools that are doing the same thing.

Or schools all over the country in America, and nonprofit organizations that help schools who don’t have chess give access to it to anyone in the school.

And I think that’s the kind of thing we really need to push, especially after the pandemic.

Because a lot of those programs have been kind of on pause, or still in progress but maybe at a lesser intensity, because the kids aren’t able to play in live events.

That’s what I think we need to keep our eye on.

Because it’s going to be a very big year for trying to redress some of the inequalities that were heightened by the pandemic here.

The next couple of years I think are going to be really important in making sure that we bridge that gap rather than widen it.

And I think chess is a big tool for that.

Chess could be a really good tool.

Yeah, I definitely do think so.

I think it’s a great way to connect people as well from everywhere.

And I think if the pandemic has shown anything to people, it’s that you can’t take things for granted.

And especially now when all this has happened, people are realizing how easy it is to connect people from all over the world.

So hopefully that will bring chess and show how versatile it is and how we can bring people together through chess, which would be amazing.

But tell me more about the Madwoman’s Book Club.

Because first of all, I love the name.

I want to hear how you came up with that.

And secondly, it’s another initiative that you’re doing to bring women and chess together.

It’s not just chess, but women everywhere together again over another great initiative.

So tell me more about that.

Well, the Madwoman’s Book Club came from…

The chess queen, which was called the crazy mad woman when she first became the most powerful piece on the board circa 1500.

So I always just loved that analogy, because it shows that people are resistant to female power.

Even if it ultimately makes the world a better place, or in this case, it made chess a better game when the queen became the most powerful piece.

And it sounded like a fun game name for a book club.

The Madwoman, you know, because a lot of women are mad, as we should be.

But it can also be read in two different ways.

Like literally mad, or just mad for the world.

Right, as that famous poem says, which I can’t remember the author of now.

But yeah, you know which one I’m talking about.

Yeah, and passionate.

Passionate is what they meant in terms of that.

Exactly.

Passionate and mad.

So it could be angry because the world isn’t just, or passionate about the world.

And both of them work.

So the reason I started it was I wanted a social club for women to connect around chess and literature that wasn’t restricted to people of a certain level.

Because that’s hard.

With girls, it’s a little easier because there are so many girls who play chess.

My girls club and my Kenya girls initiative with US Chess Girls, we’re usually hitting between 800 and 1800.

Which sounds like a wide range, but usually it’s more like 1000 to 1600.

And a lot of times people who are on the lower-rated side are just interested in joining, and they can get better because they’re taking part.

And if they’re higher-rated, usually they want the social atmosphere.

So it’s a little easier to do that with girls.

But with women, it’s harder.

Because you often have total beginners, or even chess masters who might want to take part in a social event.

So that’s the Madwoman’s Book Club.

Now I have chess champions who come, 2000–2200+ rated, and people who just know the rules.

But because it’s not only related to chess, it’s related to great books on chess or games or female empowerment, everybody can connect at the same time.

So that’s why we did it.

And it’s been great so far.

It’s been really fun.

I wish you could come to some of the sessions.

They’re at 8:00 PM Eastern though, which is a little… I don’t know.

I know, I’ve been getting such FOMO from your posts on Instagram.

And I’m like, oh my God, I really want to be there.

But then I’m just like, I want to try to go to this one, then I totally fall asleep.

So it’s fine.

Maybe you’ll be able to come to one.

Maybe the next one.

The next one’s with a…

Dr. Chandra Prescott Weinstein, who wrote *The Disordered Cosmos*, and that book is about her passion for astrophysics and also about making astrophysics more accessible to everyone and how the field itself is lacking if everybody is not included.

That is what I like. Chanda is a real genius. You would love her, and I think that one of the issues with diversity and the idea of diversity is that it is great to want to make your world more diverse. Wonderful.

But I think sometimes the focus is on the performance of diversity and having a nice photo to put in your brochure on your staff page. Whereas, you know, in a field like science where you obviously need more insights from all types of people, the focus should just be like, man, if we do not make sure that every kid has access to science, then we might not solve global warming or climate change.

That is the focus. The focus is not on having a nice photo. The focus is on making sure that we are harnessing the talent of everyone, not just people who go to a certain school.

And I see chess the same way. Chess, of course, is not as much an end in itself. I mean, it can be for some people. It can be a wonderful life and a wonderful end in itself.

But also, I sometimes think chess is like a gateway to people thinking that they are smart and people thinking that they can do hard things and technical things. It were artistic things. I mean, chess can be a gateway to art as well, not just to technical things. That was kind of like that for me.

So I think that chess is just so broad as a subject. It can go in so many different directions. It is great for harnessing talent. It is great for showing people that they did not think they were good at this, and now they are awesome at this. What else could they be awesome at? The sky is the limit.

Even my four-year-old, I see that in him because he struggled a little bit with some of his writing when he was around three, writing and drawing. But he is really good at chess.

I mean, okay, obviously I am helping him, so there is a reason for that. But I see that it helps his confidence. If you are good at one thing, you can see that you can be good at anything. It is not you and your deficiency that makes you a little bit worse at X, Y, or Z.

I think that was going to be one of my next questions, is that we have talked about you coaching girls and everything, but obviously you have got a little boy. So it is not like you are just focused on coaching girls.

How is it coaching Fabi, and how does he feel? Does he realize how much of a big star you are? I feel like, because I know that I think you have got a coach for him, right? I was going to ask how he is doing with you coaching him or his uncle Greg. Does he listen to you guys, or does he need someone else who is separate from family to be able to teach him?

Well, I love teaching him chess, and we do do it a lot. But there is this company, Story Time Chess, that we get lessons from too because they are great, and they are used to having three- and four-year-olds.

They tell a story, and they teach them chess. It is really fun to have a mix of people educating him. That is it, and it is a totally different style as well. I like that there is a mixture across you guys. That is really cute.

Yeah, it is just fun. He loves it. He just likes chess. I am not trying to raise the Polgar sisters. It is more just that he enjoys it, and it is a great way for him to spend his time, especially in this pandemic time.

And do you think there is an age that is too young to play, or when they should start playing? What do you think about that? Because you have a lot of experience coaching kids, and obviously you have a young one yourself now.

What are your thoughts in terms of kids and their development, and how much they can understand chess? Is it going to help their development? What are your thoughts on that process?

You know, before I had a kid, I would have said that two and three is too young because I would have said it is a…

Waste of time, but I was wrong because it is not about waste of time. Life should not always be so goal-oriented. It is fun for a two-year-old to mess around with the chess pieces. It is fun for a four-year-old to play chess.

It is not about a goal. If it is only about a goal, maybe it is a waste of time and you should just start at five. I do know that the Polgar, the famous Polgar dad Laszlo Polgar, started Susan and Sofia at three or four, and he waited until five for Judit. So apparently he thought that it was better to start at five.

But for me, I heard that story and I think that influenced me, and I was like, yeah, maybe we should just wait until five. But then when I saw Fabian just kind of gravitate towards the chess pieces, it is like who cares if it does not stick. It is just fun right now.

It is the same ridiculous misconception I had before I had kids. I said so many stupid things about having kids before I had kids. I think one of my clunkers was I said, what is the point of taking your kid to places like New York or Disney World because they are not going to remember it.

That was something I said, which actually a lot of people say, so I am not the only person to say that. Then I had a kid, and I was like, that does not make any sense at all. I am basically saying his current enjoyment is irrelevant because he is not going to remember it.

I totally remember my trips. I first went on a plane when I was two. This is probably where my love of travel comes from. I did not remember that one, but I remembered vividly my holiday when I was four and I was in Jamaica. I remember it vividly.

Also, I think I was four when I was in Florida. I remember my first Disneyland experience then. I was like, you know, I remember them very, very well. Even if I do not have very distinct memories, I remember Tunisia when I was about five as well.

I still have a toy that I brought back from there, and I still cherish that as a memory. I was really young, and I still genuinely remember scenes from that trip when I was four or five, like being on a camel and things like that. I remember thinking about camel humps and things like that.

I think it instills in your culture somewhere. Even if they are not easy to recall, I think they come out in certain ways. I definitely think kids’ experiences are a great thing for travel when you are younger.

Sure, yeah, that is amazing. You must have a great memory. But I also think not everything needs to be a means to an end. The fact that some people do not remember things when they are really young, like one, two, three, probably means that they are really important.

They are not storing in long-term memory, but they are kind of planting seeds for their creative and cognitive skills for their whole lives, potentially. I am not a scientist, so I do not know for sure, but I think it was pretty pompous of me to think that because somebody cannot remember something, it is irrelevant.

Oh man, at least you have been good enough to admit that you were wrong and you have owned up to your mistakes. You are like, okay, that was stupid, I know what I am doing now at least.

But I wanted to talk again about the fact that all this stuff that you have been doing, if you think about everything we have talked about, you are so big on supporting women. For me, you are obviously one of the biggest ambassadors for women in chess, without a doubt, and the same for women in poker.

To me, that is what you are, an ambassador for both of them. I am sure you have been asked a million times about sexism in chess and all this kind of stuff. I do not want to dwell on the really negative stuff because that is not what it is about.

I want to hear about why you are so passionate about teaching women and whether it came from a negative experience. Maybe it did, but what is the reason that is driving you, and why do you think it is so important that women play chess and poker?

Well, I just think that the games are…

The games are really fun and really bring in all sorts of important life skills and networks, so cutting women off from them seems really regrettable to me. Ever since I was a kid, I almost quit chess because I was the only girl.

So the idea that other people would be quitting and missing out on all this travel and flow experience and all that, it just bothered me. I was always looking for ways to get more girls and women in.

Lately, I feel like the time is a little bit more right for it. I remember maybe 12 years ago when I did initiatives like this, they were successful but not as successful as they are now. Now, there are people hungry for this, and that makes it a little bit easier because the effort that you put in is quickly converted to value, and that is what you want.

As anyone, whether you are an entrepreneur trying to make money or in my work with US Chess Women, it is non-profit employment, so it might not be money value, but it is value in the sense that if I put in an hour, I am getting this much inspiration from kids.

I do not always want to look at it analytically because some things do take more effort and more development, and they are valuable too. But the positive reinforcement that you are getting lately is much, much higher because there is that interest, which is awesome, and that really drives me.

I do see that occasionally it is important to talk about the negative, about sexism and harassment. My philosophy is that I like to talk about things that other people are not talking about a lot of the time.

One other thing that worries me about our current culture, and I do not like the phrase cancel culture because I think it is too… first of all, it has mostly been co-opted by the right, which I do not identify with. And then often it can apply to things as vast as a poorly worded tweet to actual serial abuse.

So yes, we can cancel the serial abuser, but should we cancel somebody who made a bad tweet? Probably not. I guess it depends on how bad it was, but most likely not.

I do not like how it is all kind of mixed up into the same pot. That really bothers me, that kind of culture. What bothers me about it is that it sometimes becomes trendy to find one person who is annoying and just pile on them.

Whereas I think it is more valuable to find people who can improve their behavior that no one is talking about. That provides more value, again, if you are looking at it from that value point of view.

I do not like that kind of pile-on culture. That is what I call it. I do not call it cancel culture. I call it pile-on culture because that is what I do not like.

It is so difficult with social media out there because obviously that…

It just spirals everything, good and bad. As soon as someone says anything, it is taken out of context and thrown everywhere, and you cannot get rid of it. So there is a lot of negativity out there.

What would you say the chess and poker world can do to actually help this at the moment? You are one person. You are doing so much for both the chess and poker world and helping women get into both.

But what can both the chess world and the poker world do to help this? There are obviously a few individuals out there who feel as passionately as you do and are working really hard to make changes, but inevitably I do not think enough is being done.

I know that it is really difficult to say what should be done, but as a woman in chess and as a woman who is learning how to play poker, I joined because of Xuan, right? I met Xuan and I was totally inspired by how amazing she is.

She is doing that Poker Power initiative, and I thought that was really cool, a women-only kind of poker thing. I thought I would get involved, and I did, and I just got hooked quite quickly, which is probably not a good thing.

Maybe we can have a chat in a couple of months and see how it is actually going. But the point is, I think that there is still a very small proportion of women who play both.

As someone who has been a professional chess player and coach and writer, I also do what I can to help more girls and women play chess. But again, I am only one person.

What do you think that the chess world can do to change this? I think there are a lot of things. There are so many things. From the positive, I think I will start with the positive. You know, show…

Show more women’s games. Show more games by people of color. Get more examples. If you have guest lectures for your class, include them. But even if you do not have a budget for guest lectures, just showing games by women is a start.

Use chess problems and chess puzzles. In terms of over-focusing on women and their looks, I think that is something that is easy for people to address. Make sure that if you are writing an article or doing a write-up about a girls’ tournament, you are not only putting photos and never including the games, or putting less focus on the games.

I think you can also try, if you are a man, to shut down sexist talk, especially if it is all men, because that is considered a safe space for sexism, and we want to change that. You can be that change, and I think more and more men are doing that, which is really great.

Another thing I would suggest is to foster a culture where it is not normal for a coach to be in the room alone with one kid. That is something that a lot of organizations are adopting as part of their bylaws. It is called a rule of three.

If you have one kid and one grown-up, that is not good. It should be two kids and one grown-up so that there is always a witness. Most of the time it sounds silly because it is completely not necessary, since teachers and coaches who get into the industry are usually wonderful people who are passionate about providing good experiences for kids.

But the problem is that the few times you do get a bad experience can be so traumatic for a child that it can almost ruin their lives. It is a very high-risk situation, and that is why I think the culture needs to change to address that.

So those are a bunch of things. There are so many more that we can do, but that is a start.

I think the looks thing is actually really interesting because it is true. If you look through social media, there are people who are promoting women in chess, but they are only posting glamorous photos and saying, look at this person.

They are showing a glamorous photo but not talking about the quality of chess they have played or showing the games or their favorite openings. It is just like, look at this person, look how beautiful they are.

It is like, yeah, they are, but they also play beautiful chess, and that is what you should be promoting. I actually agree with that. I think there is definitely too much focus on people’s looks as opposed to that.

If you are trying to inspire young girls to play, that is not what they are looking at. They want to know that this girl came from this country or this town that might even be their local town.

They want to hear that she went to a certain school and was the only girl there, but she still managed to beat all the boys. They want inspirational stories like that.

I feel like that actually has more of an effect than saying this girl is super pretty but she can also play chess. That is what I think when I see this whole thing.

Well, I think it depends on the platform. Unfortunately, there are some platforms where you are basically, as we say in poker, drawing dead.

I used to do more Instagram, especially when I was the communications person for US Chess social media. If you put a chess diagram versus a person’s face, let alone an attractive female, the number of impressions you get are drastically different.

So we are also dealing with a culture and an algorithm that is promoting lookism very heavily. That is another factor to consider. Teens, of course, are interested in makeup, looks, and social media, so it is very tricky.

Maybe you have to go to the platform where people are primed for intellectual stimulation. I am not saying that is always the case, but you are right, it is very visual.

But I think that there could still…

There could still be a way to do it. There are chess accounts on Instagram which are just chess positions, and they perform really, really well.

What I am trying to get at is the fact that, yes, putting an attractive female face on Instagram is going to get a bunch of likes. People are going to like it. But what message are you giving out as an account, and what have you gained from those likes?

This is the same thing I talk about in my job in marketing. It is like vanity metrics. You have gained a bunch of likes, but what positive impact have you made from that post?

If you were to do a post with a position or an interesting fact, or something that is actually valuable, that would be different. Maybe girls are interested in makeup, fine, so you could combine it.

For example, you could have a picture and say, Jen Shahade is a Women’s Grandmaster, her favorite opening is the Sicilian Dragon, and include things like that. Then you could add something like a makeup tip for those who are interested.

That way it has a purpose. It is still educating because makeup tutorials are huge on Instagram. It is still a form of education, and you are adding value.

But just putting a face there without context does not do anything apart from promoting sexism or positive discrimination, however you want to phrase it.

If you do it with a purpose, you can still use that format, but it has to have a positive influence in my opinion.

Yeah, I mean it is such a complicated topic. I broached it in Chess Pitch and…

You know because I also think like makeup and fashion are valid um you know pursuits yeah like I don’t I mean they’re but that’s what I’m saying you can make it into a makeup tutorial you’ve got a reason to put that.

Or like I love posts which are just like you know again it could be like oh this is so-and-so she’s wearing a dress from xyz and like you know and that’s that’s a fashion angle but that’s what I’m saying I don’t think they’re still done like that.

I still think they’re just done like here’s a hot girl like you know there’s there’s no reason for that apart from seeming a bit pervy in my opinion like you know if you if you showcase like fashion and like you know or even like I love doing my nails right I love doing my nails and if it’s like oh here’s like you know so and so and look how glamorous her nails are and you know her makeup and actually I’ve seen some photographers do great stuff like that.

There’s been you know some females who’ve been captured and they just have perfect makeup and perfect nails and I’ve been like oh my god this woman’s incredibly incredibly immaculate and been admiring her and then she comes out about that and how she does it that’s a positive influence on women.

That’s a difference and I just think it’s again that kind of how you post it so like that photographer posted that with that in mind but didn’t just post a picture of like yeah fire emoji like you know there’s a big difference right.

And so I feel like it’s just that the attitude towards doing it and how to promote it is is where I think I have issues with.

Such a such a difficult it’s such a difficult topic you know it’s so it’s so tough because it’s so diff right now with like streaming and social media there is such a focus there’s always been a focus on females.

And how they look but I think that that really heightens it and I just like to get I’d like to get to platforms where the um I think platforms where there is more focus on what a woman is saying even on Twitch because obviously um being beautiful or being attractive is good for streaming whatever gender you are but certainly it requires a lot more skill than that so that’s a a space where you kind of just have to have the complete package it seems to be really successful.

But I don’t know I’m just like with my work with girls I I try to focus on the chess itself and the community building and like subjects outside chess like you know whether it’s geography or learning Swahili or Spanish um.

And I I think the format of Zoom being that lots of people don’t have their cameras on it really does seem to kind of like promote that intellectual and social development more than anything else and I think that’s like I said it’s really.

Refreshing to hear that you’re focusing on the the real parts which should be good and you know that’s going to help a child’s development.

And actually I think the best bit about it is that they can learn these things and they could their transferable skills across the board and should help them overall with their education I think that’s that’s what the great thing is about it so I love that um.

But tell me like about your plans you’ve got now going forward then what what does the future look like for for you like with your chest with your poker with your U.S. women’s club the book club like you know anything like you’ve got so many things going on first of all where’d you find the time to do all this but like what’s what’s next what what’s 2022 looking like on the rest of this year how is it looking I’m like feeling really optimistic about.

It I mean I’ve got a lot of exciting projects that I hope to like kind of level up with the the um promotion of chats.

And then I’ll keep a lot of what I’m going going some of the programs will see a little bit of a change because as people go out into the world more we might need to like adjust the schedule to prepare for the hybrid future that we’re seeing but I think most of them will keep going.

I mean we’ll still have our mad women’s book club and our definitely our girls club our Kenya workshops I’ve got my two podcasts ladies night which you were on as well as um the grid um which is a my poker podcast and that would be an award right your good good one that was yes I did I won the the global poker award for that which was a huge honor because it was against a lot of the people that we play mafia with not do this one you especially David laughing oh.

So it’s like now actually wait a minute so I’ve got this one because you’re not just a pro chess player you’re not just a pro poker player but you’re also basically a pro podcaster as well which is an award-winning podcaster at least you know which is super cool um.

So ladies night is mainly chest focused right and and that’s kind of what you’re you’re promoting women in chess and the grid talks about various poker stuff is what what who should be tuning into what well definitely poker players should listen to the grid or people who are just starting to learn poker like you.

You should listen to the grid that’s that’ll be well a lot of fun for you.

And then ladies night I think is um a podcast that anyone who’s interested in chat should definitely check out we have top women players top of female personalities also sometimes we have men on as well especially if they have something they specifically want to say about women in the game uh just in general I I would always like to emphasize that female empowerment is for men too because men benefit from a world where women um execute their talents you know like that’s always been true.

And I I think it’s really important for people to wake up to that is there anything you can disclose about your new projects or was it all still hush-hush oh gosh you know it’s just it’s not even that it’s I can’t disclose it’s just that I don’t think it’ll it’ll it won’t be as.

Interesting to people until it’s a little more fleshed out but there’s TV stuff there’s writing stuff it’ll be it’ll be nice to kind of like bring some some bigger projects out to the world because I do so much but a lot of them are like like a lot of small projects.

And I am looking forward to like a couple big ones to show people 2022 2023.

That’s so exciting I can’t wait so I think like if I’m still podcasting I’m going to bring you back on talk about that later yes please and eventually if you keep playing poker I’m gonna have to bring you on to the grid too I know that’ll be so exciting so yeah for the parting words Jen from you I want to hear um a piece of advice that you can give to girls and women out there right now on who whatever journey they’re on what what sort of parting words would you give to be able to survive this big bad world out there.

Oh boy um I think it’s really uh party words to to women and girls in chess and poker or in any field basically any field like being a woman in the world that we do live in right now like obviously it can be chess poker related but you know how would you what advice would you give to people out there to because you know to me you’re a strong powerful confident woman like any girl would be honored to grow up to be like you so how did you get there like honestly like how did you get how did you get to be the person you are today.

Gosh a lot of hard work and I guess one thing I’ve done well is try to um you know figure out like when you’re most effective and do your hardest work during those times right so you know try to like if you have difficult like sometimes people have anxiety about sending important emails to people who are maybe you know higher status than they are older or you know more famous or whatever it might be people that they’re asking something for.

I think it’s really important to um you know find times where you’re less anxious to make those asks because otherwise they could just pile up and maybe you’re not like reaching your full potential if you’re not going after that you know I find that that’s really important you know just find the times of day that you’re good at these various tasks and go after it.

Another thing I’d say is to um you know women um with balancing family and work it’s it’s difficult you have to decide um you know do you want a family how big do you want it to be and like you know think about all those things and I mean I’m certainly not the first one to say that like I think women are actually hounded with advice like that you know it’s really difficult and like I said um I think things like family and having kids are some of the hardest ones to actually predict your real feelings about like I I I had such different expectations than what reality was.

So maybe I would have told my younger self to try to seek out some older friends who already had kids and actually offer to like babysit or something so that I could have more of a real impression rather than just like my bizarre fantasies that babies were annoying which turned out to be wrong I love babies these are great and so I would I would probably you know I I do have a very small family um very wonderful loving family but very small so it might be I might be a little unusual in that way but I think that’s one thing I would have told my younger self like try to hang out with different types of families and and and see like what you want and you know and get that like first-hand accounts.

I like that and I but I think that also there there is no right answer about when you should be starting a family or if you should be starting a family I feel like there’s so much advice out there like you said people are going oh you need to do this this and this but every single person’s individual right like there’s no right or wrong time and people are saying you’ve got to put your career first no you’ve got to put kids first like everyone’s different so I feel like women there’s a lot of pressure on women I feel like when it comes to starting a family and I think people need to just do what’s right for them right.

Well the problem is finding out what’s right for you because if I yeah I mean advice is just going to be so like I’m trying to give advice that you should try to figure out what’s right for you because it’s really it’s one of those things in life that’s like very difficult to figure out just using books or um first-hand accounts because everybody is different and maybe the best way to do it is try to like simulate like real life experiences by by seeking out you know and I think that’s good for the world too like I mean how much easier would it be for women in this pen well I guess this pandemic is a bad example because people are trying to stay in their bubbles but beyond the pandemic um if you know a woman has a new baby and or a man um you know if uh you you have a new child whether you’re a man or a woman and all of your friends offer to like babysit like that would be pretty awesome for them right.

Yeah absolutely I mean some you’d probably say no yeah yeah yeah yeah no uncle Leo does not have to come on the babies but but but um I think that that could give people like more of an understanding because it just seems like sometimes there’s like a shallower understanding of family because we’re so work obsessed in a lot of our cultures.

I just love how that look the last bit also showcased how you analyze an extra move deeper than me and the fact that I was like yeah when you’re starting a family you just got to do what’s right and you’re like wait first you have to decide what is right just like okay you just out analyze me well yeah I mean it seems so obvious like you know but it’s that I’ve learned from experience it’s not from out analyzing it’s just from learning from experience that there are some things in life that you can say I know what I want this is it and I think there are other things where it’s just a lot harder because as as you change your desires change and the goal post keeps moving right.

So how do you figure out where that goal post is it’s probably really difficult but asking people who you respect who are older or maybe at a different path in their life than you I mean that seems like hey I mean it’s gonna be hard to do much better than that yeah amazing.

Well thank you so much for today um it’s been amazing having you on where can people find you um if they want to get in touch and ask more questions like how can we get in touch with you.

Well just like you told me on on my podcast on ladies night when I asked you the same question it was like I am very easy to find online jennifer shahadi.com I’m at jihadi on Twitter and Instagram and those are probably the best places to find everything that I do thepokergrid.com ladiesnight.org uschest.org has information on my women’s programs but I usually try to keep the highlights on Twitter so that people can kind of like funnel their way to the good stuff.

Cool so start on Twitter and then kind of find your way everywhere although I know that you are not Jen Shah from what’s that show called from the real housewives of salt lake city you are definitely not her that is the one mistake people don’t want to get right.

Yeah that like I have my like little google doppelganger although it’s not that bad Jennifer Shahadi is a pretty rare name I feel bad for people like we have a John Foley in one of our um in one of our social groups right John Foley is like also like the CEO of Peloton or something I think I know I think I know two other John Foleys too yeah there’s one in the UK that also runs like the chess education yeah yeah so there you go like it’s it’s a it’s a very common name I’m sure there’s a few that’s also very common in chess but Jen Shahadeh and also Sabrina Shavans I think we have a fairly unique names uh so if anyone gets us mixed up then uh it’s probably not us as you said we’re both super easy to find social media.

So um yeah I just want to thank Jen for coming on today you’ve been amazing inspiring to women as usual so thank you and I will be sure to hit you up on social about stuff and thank you for coming on.

You’re welcome thank you Sabrina congrats on your new podcast exciting see you guys next week.