I’ve done most of the big stresses in life.

The marriage, kids, buy a house, divorce, all of the big stresses.

I would say selling a business for me is definitely out there with the most stressful things I’ve ever done.

And I have burnt out previously.

I burnt out when I worked at Disney and I certainly burnt out when I’m selling my business and it is a very, very, very challenging process.

It’s one of those things that no one ever quite understands and until they go through it.

No Bullshit Talks is a podcast for entrepreneurs by entrepreneurs.

There’s too much bullshit out there especially when it comes to business.

This podcast aims to highlight what’s true and what’s not in the world of entrepreneurship, bringing you honest and raw conversations about the rollercoaster that is entrepreneurship.

Each week my guest will be a high-performing entrepreneur sharing the ups and downs of their journey and helping you prepare for the road ahead while providing you with actionable insights and absolute gems of knowledge.

Stay tuned as I introduce this week’s guest.

Adam Rubins has over 25 years of experience in the digital world heading up Viva Media Marketing at Disney before going on to launch his own agency, Way To Blue.

There he works with huge brands such as Red Bull, NBC Universal, and InterContinental Hotel Group.

After selling his agency in 2018, Adam set up The Arc Consultancy to help business owners grow but also protect their mental health.

I present to you this week’s guest, Adam Rubins.

So Adam, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you so much for being here.

Thank you for having me.

Do you want to just tell the audience a little bit about what it is that you do?

Yes, I mean it’s a very good question.

So yes, I’m Adam Rubins.

I’m the CEO of The Arc and also now Next Y, which are management consultancies.

What do management consultants do?

I mean no one actually really knows and I’m not sure I’m convinced either.

But what do I do?

So my background is entertainment…

So I worked at the Walt Disney Company for 10 years.

I ran International Marketing there and then I left there, started an agency with a partner.

We built that over 15 years before selling the business.

And now I can consult and I help other people do the same thing.

So I’m helping a mostly independent marketing agencies to grow and scale.

Then I’m helping them to realize some value and I’m trying to do it without anyone burning out.

Amazing.

I love that you worked at Walt Disney.

I feel like I want to ask you loads of questions about that.

Please.

I don’t know, I feel like is that entrepreneurship enough I guess?

It’s interesting for culture.

I think I read that book, was it not The Culture Code, the other one about Creativity, Inc.

Did you read that one?

I haven’t, no.

That’s Pixar.

Yeah it is Pixar and I worked very closely with Pixar.

That’s what I mean.

So they talk about what it was like there and everything and obviously you hear all the stuff about Steve Jobs and all the things.

What was it like working at Walt Disney because I don’t think I’ve ever met anyone who worked there.

All right.

Well look, I mean back in the day when I was there, I mean I was there sort of in Steamboat era, you know.

But it was great.

It was amazing.

Honestly, the best place to sort of learn your craft, to sort of learn what it’s like to work in a corporate environment.

I almost got fired in my first week for cc’ing someone on an email and putting it in the wrong order.

Wait, what?

How?

I cc’d someone in an email and the really important guy, I’ll never forget his name, I think I cc’d him second or third and he almost got me fired for not cc’ing him first.

Wait, so he’s so self-important that he had to have his name first in the email order?

But it’s a good learning experience.

I mean look, the one thing you do when you’re working at somewhere like Disney and you’re working on the film side of it, which is what I was working on, you’re dealing with a lot of egos.

Now I was very fortunate in that on the whole I worked with the most incredible people, the loveliest, most down-to-earth people you could possibly hope to work with.

But the industry is, there are a lot of egos there.

Damn.

That is harsh.

Yeah, I mean to make that a sackable offence is actually…

Well, I got through it.

I got through it.

I mean it’s quite funny because when you think about these days now and what’s allowed and what’s not, to think that you almost got fired for that and now everyone can almost get away with anything, which is what it feels like these days.

Oh I know.

What a big difference.

Well there were rules back in those days.

There were things you had to do.

There were contractual obligations.

There doesn’t seem to be any anymore.

I think nowadays the employees like the contracts more kind of what it looks like.

It would appear that way, yes.

So what made you leave, other than the fact that you might have had 12 bosses?

What made you leave the glamour, is one of these that word, because I feel like it is a glamorous job saying I worked at Walt Disney.

What made you leave that and then start your own agency?

Uh well I had 10 years there.

And I had a glorious 10 years there.

But I was there at a time where it didn’t feel particularly corporate and bureaucratic.

Towards the end of my stint there it started to turn a bit.

And it started to become The Walt Disney Corporation it is today as opposed to Buena Vista International which is kind of where I worked.

So the more corporate and bureaucratic it became the less it was for me.

See what makes companies of that size and stature and like legacy change so drastically do you think?

Well monetization, corporate profits, commercializing the business, new leadership.

There are all manner of different things that can happen to a business like that.

I just happened to be there when the going was good.

You know the going was really good.

And therefore there is that freedom when things are going well.

No one wants to mess with the formula.

So at that time we were afforded lots of freedom.

It wasn’t microscopic.

There weren’t people looking at what we were doing because the money was rolling in.

As the world and the business started to change it inevitably becomes a bit more corporate.

There are shareholder responsibilities.

There’s quarterly earnings reports.

There’s all these things that suddenly become more important than, than you know, enjoying your day-to-day.

And money always affects everything at the end of the day.

I feel like any question could be brought back down to money, right?

It’s what it is.

And it’s kind of sad when you think about it.

But it is.

And it isn’t.

And I would love to take the stigma out of that because there’s nothing wrong with talking about money.

There’s nothing wrong with making money.

There’s nothing wrong with it.

And I do think we’re getting to a stage now where a lot of people are a bit like, well why does it have to be about money?

Well it’s business so it is about money.

It just is.

And that’s okay.

Now are there things that we can do around that that make the culture better?

That make people enjoy what they’re doing a bit more?

That gives people the flexibility and freedom they need?

Absolutely.

But it still has to come back to money.

Otherwise it’s not a charity.

Yeah.

And I actually do echo that.

I feel like there’s a line though, right?

Because I feel like you can also want to do good in the world and you want to do things with purpose.

But as I said it’s not a charity.

You do need a bottom line.

And I think that what I found in corporations is a little bit different to small businesses I think.

And I think that a lot of small businesses do a lot more for employees in a way because they’re kind of closer to them.

But I think, do you not think that employees forget that there’s also a bottom line as well?

And I feel like a lot of time they work for big corporates like Google and the big ones.

And they just see all the benefits.

And they do earn billions and billions and billions of pounds.

So it’s almost like you forget that money comes from somewhere.

And they just expect to be paid or whatever.

But how do you think that affects smaller businesses?

Because I feel like they don’t have that luxury of having all the money in the world.

And smaller businesses I found, because I am a small business owner, I work with a lot of small business owners.

And the impression I get is that they want to make profit because they need to live.

And you know we started this business for a reason.

Not to just save away.

But we also want to do right by employees because we care.

There was a small close team so we want to help them.

But at the same time they also need to realize that money has to come from somewhere.

And I feel like they should also be more aware about profit and business and where that money comes from.

What are your thoughts on that?

Well I think you’re right.

But in an ideal world everyone would be aligned and everyone would be on the same page.

Sadly life just doesn’t work that way.

And you know I grew a business from startup to you know around 150 people and along just like when you’re an adolescent child you go through a bit of a journey um businesses are the same and there are lots of different stages within which a business changes.

And so I’ve experienced a lot of those stages and you try everything.

You try everything from I’m not going to tell anyone about the financial element because they don’t want to know all the way through to I’m going to tell them everything this is going to be a business school full transparency.

And there’s no right answer.

Some people like the first way others like the second and everyone is very different.

So ideally I think from a leadership point of view you have to focus on people’s strengths.

You have to focus on people’s individual values and what’s important to them and design an information flow that works specifically for them.

It’s hard work.

It is hard work.

And I even listen to you there I’ve done both too.

I definitely started off with like you know just doing like not saying anything about my money and income revenue like goals and all that sort of stuff and then I became super duper transparent.

I think that yeah some of them didn’t like it and they’re like well I just want to get paid I don’t care where the money comes from.

And actually they felt it was too much pressure on them actually knowing targets and knowing that sort of stuff.

And others are like okay this is great like I bet somebody feel like more involved in the business.

So like you know there is no answer right and that’s the problem.

I think so many people are out there looking for this blueprint to business success as well.

Buy books, why they watch courses or they do coaching, they’re looking for some sort of like answer.

This is how you’ve run a business and this is the right way and this is what will get you profit.

So you said you’ve done all the different ways.

Like…

I’ve failed in every direction.

Every possible way.

So tell me some of that though because I feel like you said what not 150?

Like 150 is a large business you know.

It is a large business.

Really it’s a well it’s all relative so probably classed as a small to medium enterprise but I’ll take it.

I’m going to say it’s a large business.

It’s larger than anything I’ve ever anywhere near owned.

So I’d like to know what are the sort of stages along the way.

What have you tried?

What works at different sizes or what didn’t work?

Oh God I mean yeah you could be.

But look we were a small but mighty business.

Okay.

So we did everything to everyone in every market, right.

So we were all things to all people everywhere.

What you’re not supposed to do.

Correct.

Just correct.

And what I would advise other entrepreneurs not to do.

But you know it was an interesting process.

So it was let’s call it breadth versus depth.

We did a lot of different things.

We worked in a lot of different sectors and we had 10 offices worldwide servicing 30 plus markets right.

And so I got to experience business all over the globe.

I got to travel.

I got to open up offices around the world.

Got to work with different clients and you know it was really interesting.

Really really interesting.

Now that is a lot of fun when you’re small.

And I would say probably when we were about 30 people that was the best time.

Maybe 50.

Beyond that it gets very challenging.

Very very challenging.

Because your role as a leader within the business is ultimately to firefight.

To put out fires.

Your client is a big client is about to leave you.

You need to go and convince them to stick around.

Your MD in Australia resigns.

You have to fly to Australia and convince them to stay.

You know an area that you’ve invested a lot of money in isn’t working.

How do you turn that part of the business around?

You know not to mention the day-to-day HR issues that are ever growing in today’s society.

It becomes really hard to please everyone.

So if you’ve got clients, internal stakeholders, external stakeholders, investors, even your family, you’re going to be upsetting someone you know.

And that is not pleasant when you’re under a lot of pressure.

No and that’s like a big dose of reality to a lot of people there.

Because I feel like you know you’ve just said something which I think I’ve realized but most people don’t realize.

I know that we’re only a small like 14 people but I already feel like I have to firefight.

I have to go do all those things already as it is.

Now imagine like 10x-ing the size of that company.

I’ve got 10x more headaches probably.

And I think that’s something I’d love to chat to you about because I’ve struggled in agency world.

Like I really have.

I’ve found it so challenging for so many different reasons.

I think that there’s a culture of growth, speed, scaling, all these words just come up all the time.

You know there’s also I think unlike any other industry you’re encouraged to network with your peers other agency owners.

Which I actually love.

Which I actually think is a really really good thing.

But then as a result you’re sort of absorbing everything that’s going on with other agency owners and maybe some of their problems.

And there’s this natural paranoia is what I call the word.

Like it’s like you just compare yourself to the people and I just find that I got caught up in a lot of the agency scaling obsession.

Yeah.

Like it seems to be everywhere I go is like how big is your company now?

What’s your turnover like?

What?

And it’s all about that focus.

And I just feel like every sort of webinar and conference you go to is all about scaling.

That’s all it seems to be about.

Doesn’t seem to be any interest in quality of work and maintaining your clients.

It’s like get new clients screw the ones that you’re currently working with.

Just get the new ones.

And I found that really a struggle because I actually quite like being a small business.

You just mentioned you were happiest at 30.

Like I think that would be lovely to have an agency of 30 people.

You know every single one of them intimately I presume.

Like you know them really well.

And like you were telling earlier the best way to understand people is to really understand each of their values and what they want.

I would love something like that and less focus on the larger things.

I definitely got caught up in it.

Like you’ve just mentioned how all the headaches and the struggles that you get as you grow a business.

So I’d love to talk through that because I just feel like I don’t know about other industries but especially with agencies I find it more so.

What is the obsession with growth and scaling and obviously you did it you scaled all it to 150 what was that like and why are we so obsessed with it?

Well I’m pleased we are obsessed because it keeps me fully employed.

Okay.

Um but you’re you’re you’re right there is a focus on growth and I suppose the question then becomes why do we do what we do right and that is what I work with a lot of people on I’m also a coach as well so I work specifically with CEOs and I try and answer the why question right and the why question is so important is amazes me how many businesses I come across that don’t have an answer to the why question.

They’re just doing what they’re doing but they don’t really know why.

Fundamentally and
certainly I can talk about my experience I didn’t get into the world of agencies to run a lifestyle business.

Okay.

I didn’t just want to afford a lifestyle and that was it I wanted to generate and realize some value.

So if you’re building
towards what’s called an exit or or or a realization event then you have to grow because the market doesn’t value you if you’re a standstill business or if there’s no growth in the business.

You started off with that intention.

Yes.

That was your why, your why was that I would like
to grow a business and exited sell it perhaps.

Well look I would like to think my why was to do good work for you know
my clients and to have a unique place in the market and whatever.

Fine but then your goal maybe was to connect it.

Correct.

But some people do want to have a lifestyle business and I think that that’s okay and I think that what I’ve noticed is that in agency world it’s
almost seen as not okay it’s like you have to exit otherwise why are you doing this but what’s wrong with just sort of having a business that you enjoy that you want all your team to enjoy that you just create this great culture a place where everyone loves coming to work but
they’re doing great work for clients and and maybe even with a purpose of business and you’re earning a decent enough profit to have a great lifestyle
that you want to have what is so wrong about that?
Absolutely nothing.

Okay.

Nothing least yeah I mean absolutely
nothing, nothing wrong with that I I the only thing I would say is know know that that’s what you’re there to do and if that’s what that you’re there to do run the business accordingly because the decisions you make as a business owner if you’re trying to realize value or if you’re just trying to earn enough money to afford your lifestyle are very different.

So let’s talk about that cuz I want to understand that difference I think that I definitely I actually love a lifestyle business for me like I like and it depends on what your lifestyle wants to look like too right so everyone’s going to have a different form of lifestyle um but I’m not interested in exiting and growing this big thing and selling it and and and like busting my bath but I definitely got caught up in that because I I I want to do well I am also ambitious and and I work hard and I wanted to to run a successful business but I think I approached it in the way that everyone’s
teaching us in terms of growth and exiting which is wasn’t right for me but I love to differentiate between that like what does a lifestyle business look like versus what does a business who is trying to scale to exit and what are the differences that people should be doing if they want to an need one well.

Look if you’re trying to grow a business for exit there are certain metrics that you will want to remain competitive in right.

So you’ll want to have growth at the top you’ll want to grow your revenues you want to have growth at the bottom your profit and you’ll want to have um a sizable margin and in order to do that sometimes you need to make sure that the business is running efficiently and effectively so for example if you want to run a business for exit you might not have as many staff.
Interesting.

Because that will in turn have an impact on your margins that has an impact on the value of the business and when you go to sell ultimately it you’re selling off a multiple of your profit.

So would you actually say because I think a lot of the things that I get asked is like you know when are you growing your team and they have this thing so would you actually say that it’s better to have better quality people who work more
efficiently rather than a large number in your team who maybe aren’t as efficient and therefore you having a higher profit margin on on that is that
more.

Oh, definitely, definitely I mean look one of the reasons why people want to sell is that they can then be part of
something that has scale.

Okay.

Um, so you know you you’re better to run an operationally efficient organization pre-sale um because your margins will be
higher.

And you know I think there’s a lot of focus on method a which which is significant you mentioned you mentioned
the top line and I feel like they definitely look at pipeline.

Yeah.

And they look at all that sort of stuff and your ability to generate cash right.

Yeah.

Essentially but profit surely should be the the most important number.

Well the the the the interesting thing is is um I
don’t think there’s enough focus on Revenue.

Really?

Certainly not in the agency world because the market values profit so you’ll find a lot of business
owners are profit obsessed and if you’re profit obsessed you might make the wrong decisions for the longevity of the business
because well you might you might be cutting costs because you want to get your profits up but cutting costs might cost you in the long term.

Okay, because
you want to think about long-term strategy too so obviously if you need to invest in the future of your business it might make sense to spend more money now.

Absolutely. Look any anyone can cut their
way to profit it’s not that difficult to do the what what I advise my clients is to focus more on the top line.

But what about long obviously long-term profit? because also focusing if you there’s got to be balance there I feel like…

It has to be balanced I I’m by no means suggesting
that people run a loss making business.

That’s what I mean.

Um so that there has to be a balance but if you are an
acquirer you want a a business that is growing at the top the revenue because that is the true health check for a
business.

Okay.

Right if you’re if you’re buying a business that is flat at the top it’s not growing it’s very hard to
change that.

Whereas if it’s if a business is growing at the top but its profits are lower you can fix that

Because you can shave off…

You through operational efficiency through PE you know there are a number of different things you can do to tinker with the
profit but to actually change that top line is very very difficult so I always think that’s the true reflection of the
health of a business is whether it’s growing at the top not the bottom but as I say caveat we’re not running break
even or loss making businesses here.

Yeah.

But we want to have room to tinker with the margin.

So would you therefore say it’s fair to say that it’s actually
easier to optimize a business’s like process in terms of efficiency than it is to actually generate Revenue?

Yes, absolutely.

Okay, so can we talk through that a little bit then because I feel like I guess that’s everyone everyone’s really dollar question is how do I make
more money and so in agency world because that’s what specialty right how what are the kind of key
factors that do help generate more money and therefore make a business more attractive to sale?

Well to generate the money I mean it’s that’s where sales and
marketing comes in and I work with a number of different agencies when I’m working with them I typically do what I
call a kind of a diagnostic so I’ll go in give a helicopter view of the business and have a little look around and see what’s working and what isn’t and then I’ll set out a pathway to
fixing some of those those issues and fundamentally where most businesses are challenged is sales and marketing.

Wow, and you think that as agency world marketing should be a massive pro for a it’s like I guess cobbler shoes and all that right you can’t.

Absolutely you talk
to any marketing agency and they’ll all tell you we are the worst at marketing ourselves.

What do they do then what is what are they doing wrong it’s…

It’s not a priority the the priority is always client work hence why there’s a lot of
over servicing hence why the margins sometimes are challenged and they don’t prioritize
themselves.

But is is that also a problem because of the way that clients do treat agencies like I feel like there’s
there’s a almost a lack of respect sometimes in in the agency world with how some clients treat agencies and and
so they demand more they’re kind of you know they’re they’re sort of being less flexible with deadlines and things like that they always seem to have an urgency
and so isn’t it is that is that what the reason?

I love that you said that because that for me it’s a huge issue and it’s
not it’s not talked about nearly needs to be talked about it needs.

I think there’s a massive lack of resp..

No Bullshit talk, right?

Let’s have a No Bullshit conversation.

No Bullshit
conversation there is a big responsibility on clients and I I’ve been a client and I was fortunate enough to work in an environment that valued
its agencies in fact they called them partners not agencies right and I was I wouldn’t say I was trained but I was
quite clearly and prescriptively told about how to work with third parties and agencies by my bosses this is how you
treat people if you treat them this way you will get more value out of them that in turn will help us but it will also
help them and helping them is good.

It doesn’t work that way anymore there are
no there is very little respect for agencies their um clients are squeezing agencies and that and their margins and that in turn is putting people out of work and it’s shrinking the market.

Yeah.

It doesn’t help anyone
now as a client you don’t want to say to a client you need to be spending more money with your agencies because clients also are experiencing a very difficult
time at the moment they’re under a lot of pressure internally to cut costs right but if they’re going to cut overheads if they’re going to cut their
staff and they need agency support to replace it they need to pay for it

I just think it’s such a I I get it like like I said clients are struggling everyone is struggling at the moment but is it why is there a situation that someone’s going suffer from that struggle like why can’t we all somehow
work out a way that everyone can respect each other because at the moment I do think agencies are really struggling like I have so many other agency other
owners who are going through either really rough patch or they’re shutting down their agency they’re letting go all their staff and it’s it’s it’s university spread like it’s really difficult for lots of agencies and this can’t be a reflection on agency for sale or just the economy there has to be other factors at play.

There are but ultimately and this comes back to the conversation we were having before about sort of transparency and everyone
understanding the business all we really care about is our own plot we don’t care about other people’s plot and I I think
that’s a bit of an issue uh almost like a societal and humanity issue where we are becoming a bit more selfish and we
care about our own plot and that that’s problem it’s very problematic in business

I mean for example I I came up with a way to save the High Street and it’s all about creating ecosystems. It’s all about High Street retailers sending footfall to other High Street retailers on the same High Street, not competitors, but you know a restaurant teaming up with a barber and them having discount rates and all sorts of things for each other and trying to send people to create more uh uh value, interest, and more of a market on the local high street.

And I think businesses should be the same. When I started running an agency, I called up some of my competitors and I took them out for dinner and I said, look, I’m going to be doing this. I’d love to work really closely with you because from my point of view, the bigger the market, the more we will benefit.

Yeah.

So how do we work together and make sure that we keep our rates high, we keep value high, and we help each other out?

How did that go down?

No one was interested.

Really?!

No.

You take care of your own, we’ll take care of ours. You’re now a competitor, we don’t want to talk to you.

How close-minded is that though? I just don’t understand it and I feel like that’s literally what I’m trying to do at the moment with this entrepreneur network I’m creating.

And I think it’s all about collaboration. The entire tagline is that everyone’s a winner. The idea is that if you have partners on board and they’re advertising to our members, they win getting more business, the members win because they get loads of value, and we win to have your members.

It should be the most easy…

I’m with you.

I’m with you.

I’m about win-wins. So I do a lot of work in M&A. I help buy and sell businesses and where M&A, in my experience, has gone wrong is a lot of brokerage is out there.

So when I sold my business, I worked with a brokerage and most people do. The brokerages are very good at what they do, of course they are. They’re corporate financiers. They know what they’re doing.

But they’re not motivated for success in terms of longevity. They’re motivated by completing a transaction.

Whereas for me, because I’ve been an ex-operator of a business, I’m far more interested in there being longevity and success over the long term than I am just about completing a transaction.

I just think you know collaboration is such a big thing and like you said, I love that term ecosystem. And like what you say about the High Street, that’s just a great idea.

I just think everyone does win. I have seen a lot of research. There are some companies who do a lot of research in agencies, they take a lot of data. It’s always shown that the biggest referral of business is other agency partnerships. That’s what a lot of people do say, so it must work.

So why is there such a narrow-minded approach to this?

Well, it works, but I think in that instance that is big agency networks collaborating with small independent agencies.

Right.

Okay.

So that is big corporate companies using small companies to do the work on it as themselves.

Right.

That’s really not partnership, that’s exploitation in a way.

Like you’re going…

Yeah, it is. And there’s a lot of that goes on.

Look, it works for the big agencies and it works for the little ones too, so there is an element of win-win there.

But you know there are too many agencies and not enough work and we live in a world sadly where there is going to be a lot more consolidation and businesses coming together.

And that needs to happen in the agency world too.

So there has to be either more networks or more of an ecosystem or more M&A.

Otherwise I don’t think a lot of these businesses can survive.

And that’s really sad because like I know how hard we work for these businesses and are putting all that effort and then after eight, ten years it’s sort of like, I can’t do this anymore.

And you just sort of sack it off. Like you almost don’t have anything to show for it.

So if you have a merger then fine, but a lot of people don’t. They just kind of give up.

I mean sadly, I get calls honestly every week from agencies that are at that point where they can no longer continue and they either have to exit or have to sell or have to consider an more alternative or they might have to go into administration or do something like that.

But like I say, there are lots and lots of agencies globally and something needs to change because there’s just not enough work and there’s not enough money out there for everyone to survive and thrive.

And I’m glad you said that because I’ve always thought that.

I feel like this agency world is in denial in some ways. There seems to be a new one popping up every day because now it’s like you’ve got the likes of Canva and you’ve got the likes of AI and all these smaller people coming up and calling themselves an agency and then outsourcing it overseas and being able to do this sort of thing.

And now suddenly everyone’s an agency.

I think it’s diluting the whole thing and I think it’s causing more frustration in clients as well, so it’s making it worse in a way.

Yeah, I think so.

Look, it’s like everything, there’s always a degree of nuance. Right?

There are some not so thrilling things happening in the industry and in the market right now, but there’s also some very interesting things happening.

You mentioned one of them. I think AI is going to lead to a lot more operational efficiency. It’s going to create a lot more opportunities and therefore the businesses that are able to pivot and change the quickest are going to be the businesses that can survive.

Interesting.

I feel like that’s a whole other kind of topic, how to use AI to optimize your business, which I’m sure has been done and that little tagline has been on millions of articles as well because I think it is something huge.

I know that there are a lot of agency chats. I know we’re talking about different AI to use because it’s overwhelming as well. Right?

I don’t see AI replacing people per se, but actually, like you said, creating more opportunities.

I think so.

Yeah.

I mean look, let’s call it operational efficiency.

Certainly if you look at it on a short, medium, and long-term basis, certainly in the short term it’s not replacing people.

Medium to long term, well let’s see what happens.

It is possible that you’ll be able to reduce the size of your business, but that might not be a terrible thing for business.

There are a lot of bloated businesses out there that need to be more operationally efficient.

However, I don’t want to see people put out of work, so we need to be coming up with smart ideas to put the people that are, let’s call it surplus to requirements, into gainful employment somewhere else.

That’s really, really important.

Yeah, I like that.

And I think you mentioned earlier about the different options that businesses have got and I’d love to touch on that because I know there are a few agencies out there and other businesses, it doesn’t have to be agencies, who are in that situation where they are kind of fed up and either something has to change and they can’t keep going on like this or, like you said, they have to do an M&A or they have to go into administration.

I’d like to just talk through those options because not every business can sell.

They’re not all in that position.

You mentioned a few of the things that affect it.

What are the differences?

This might be really difficult for people to hear because they might be thinking, okay, I’m going to sell my business and they realize it’s not sellable and they have to go into administration.

What are the key differences for a business who wants to kind of shut their doors?

Can I sell it onto another company?

Is it sellable?

Or do I have to just go down liquidation or administration?

This is for businesses that have maybe come to the end of their journey.

And because people misunderstand, you mentioned profit, but people don’t have to have a lot of cash in the bank or be profitable to be able to sell a business.

I’ve seen businesses that have bought businesses which are in debt and they’ve taken on their debt because they see potential in their brand or their pipeline or something like that.

So I’d love to talk about the differences and the people’s options at the moment who maybe want to shut their doors for whatever reason.

Look, there are lots of different options, but every scenario is very different.

When we were growing our agency, we acquired four businesses along the way, and we wouldn’t have been able to acquire those businesses if they were, you know, operating at a very high margin.

So we were given those opportunities, and thankfully it then allowed us to keep people employed and keep people working, and that was very, very important to us.

Had we not done that, I think those businesses may have gone under and those people would have lost their jobs.

But we gained something from it.

They either did good work, or it came with good people, or they worked with good clients, so we always gained something from it.

The people gained something, and the business had a legacy.

It continued.

Now, there’s lots of different options that businesses have, but it depends where they are in that evolutionary cycle.

Some are just running out of cash.

They just cannot continue, so they need to find someone that can come in and immediately start paying those salaries, start delivering that work, and possibly even cover some debt.

Not everyone is prepared to do that.

Now, typically businesses don’t exist unless there is a reason for them to exist.

They’re either a specialist, they’re good at something, or they work with a particularly good client, or they’ve got really good people, and those things will always be valuable.

So if you have some of those things, there are buyers out there in the market.

But are you buying the shares of the business, or are you buying the assets?

And that’s where you know it starts to get sort of quite interesting because you don’t want to take on risk and liability.

If you’re a big business, you’re concerned about the risks and the liabilities that come with a business that’s going out or running out of cash.

So you might just want to take the assets, the name, the website, the people, the client book.

You might not want to buy the whole business.

So there are different things that you can do.

Interesting.

So, like a company now who may be in that position trying to make decisions, they can actually sell parts of their business in terms of, like, the IP and their staff and essentially not have to sell the business as a whole?

Yes, correct.

Yeah, I didn’t actually know that.

I think that’s quite interesting.

Well, there you go.

That’s a really good kind of little piece of information I think people can explore into.

So you’ve given us loads of advice on how others can sell a business and/or prepare for a sale, but you’ve actually sold your business, and so I want to talk about that because, you know, personal experiences.

Now, as we said, there’s so much focus on growth and scaling to exit.

You’ve done it, and I want to talk about how that felt because I always feel like there’s always, you know, people talk about, “Well, if I have this thing, then I can do this and become this person.”

So it’s like, “If I just have a bit more money, I can do this in my life, and then I’ll be really happy.”

As an example, that is what so many people say.

And I’m guessing lots of people are thinking, “If I can just sell the business, I can exit, I make all this money, my life’s complete, and I’m happy. I can do other things.”

So you’ve done it.

What was it actually like, and how did you actually feel?

Oh my goodness, where to start?

And thank you for triggering me.

No, no, no, it’s fine.

Honestly, well look, I’ve done most of the big stresses in life: marriage, kids, buying a house, divorce, you know, all of the big stresses.

I would say selling a business for me is definitely up there with the most stressful things I’ve ever done.

And look, I have burnt out previously.

I burnt out when I worked at Disney, and I certainly burnt out when I was selling my business.

It is a very, very, very challenging process, and it’s one of those things that no one can ever quite understand until they go through it, which makes my job quite difficult because I’m selling something to people that they don’t know they need, but they need it.

But that’s remarkable.

So everything we just talked about preparing your business for exit, and you even said at the beginning that this is what you wanted, this was your goal, right?

Yeah.

So if this is something you’ve wanted for so many years, you’ve worked and worked and worked to get there, surely that should be one of the most magical, stress-free moments of your life.

There must have been some stress in it, but didn’t you feel relieved?

Didn’t you feel accomplished?

Like look, I think most leaders, I don’t say all, but again, I coach a lot of people and you hear the same thing from a lot of leaders: imposter syndrome, and it’s lonely at the top.

So you’re talking about people that are battling with relatively low self-confidence but high egos, and there is a combination of those two things happening at the same time, which is very difficult.

Not to mention that a lot of people’s identities are linked to their job, and their self-worth is linked to their work.

So, you know, you are facing a lot of things when you’re selling a business.

You’re facing a lot of hard questions.

If you think about burnout, I always classify a burnout as extreme fatigue coupled with high intense pressure and a misalignment of values.

And when you sell a company, you go through all three of those because you can’t tell people you’re selling, so you’re keeping a secret from everyone.

And you’re making decisions about the business that run contrary to your normal behaviors because you have to keep your margins high while you’re selling the business.

So when someone comes to you and says, “We’ve just won a big piece of business. I need to hire someone,” and your normal answer is yes, your answer this time might be, “Sorry, we can’t do that.”

And then they might say, “Why? Why?” and then you have to lie.

And if you’re a leader, for a lot of leaders, that’s very difficult.

You want to be transparent.

I was very transparent.

I wanted to tell everyone everything.

So lying to people for three years, basically.

Three years?!

It was a three-year process from start to finish.

I found very, very difficult.

Not to mention, as I say, the business has got to be performing.

So during the day, you’re putting out fires, keeping the business performing.

In the evening, you’re working with brokers, lawyers, accountants, stakeholders on both ends, and everyone is pissed off with you.

Everyone.

Not to mention you go home at night and your wife is like, “Um, are we ever going to see you?”

Oh my God.

So you’re failing everyone all the time, and it’s very difficult.

And like I said, because we had offices all over the world, I was on a plane doing long-haul travel all the time.

So my life just lost the sense of momentum, and I was not living my values.

We were going through a very challenging process.

I would say ours was harder than most and longer than most, and a lot of that was due to the complexity of our business.

So again, don’t do the “all things to all people in all places” business.

And it really impacted my mental health.

So the day we sold, I had to convinced myself that selling the business would be a utopia.

Yeah, we’re going to sell, everything’s going to be all right, don’t worry.

My lovely wife, who’s been really patient with me, once I sell the business, everything will be great, don’t worry.

Staff who have stuck with me even though I’ve been painful for the last three years, everything’s going to be all right.

We’re going to, you know… and you convince yourself you’re going to have answers for everyone and everyone will be okay with it.

And then the completion happens and nothing changes except you’re now no longer a business owner.

You’re a paid employee of your own company.

So emotionally, you then have to go through a letting go process.

You then have to go through, “This is no longer my business. I no longer make the calls. In fact, there’s someone else making the calls, and I don’t really agree with the calls they’re making.”

So it is a really challenging thing to go through.

And the next normal question is, “Well, why would you do it then?”

I have a lot of questions in my head right now, but, you know, that is one of them.

And the reason you would is that it doesn’t have to be that way.

And that is why I am doing what I am doing.

I’m doing it to change that, to re-engineer it so that none of that happens.

I don’t want people burning out.

I don’t want people selling their business to an owner that is going to make the wrong calls or not make the right strategic calls.

There is a way to do it where everyone wins, and it needs to be re-engineered to deliver that.

I mean, okay, so much there.

I mean, it’s put me off.

Everyone.

I mean, when you said, “Oh, you have to, you know, nothing changes but you’re just an employee,” I was like, that’s the worst nightmare ever.

And having someone else making the calls?

No, thank you.

Well, I mean, you had a nice little press release, you know.

Thanks.

I mean, surely the big cash sum in your bank account must have helped a little bit?

The cash in the bank helps, right, but look, at the end of the day, we as human beings are not all fighting for more money as though that is what utopia looks like.

Financial stability is important.

And from an analytical point of view, we all get anxious about financial stability, so that’s important.

But it’s not everything.

And I think when you’re selling your company, you convince yourself that that’s going to be the answer.

And you realize very quickly that there’s more to life than just you know numbers in a bank balance.

And I think you mentioned something earlier which really stood out, is that you’re tied to your business in terms of identity.

I think that a lot of people sell the business and then they ask themselves the question, “Well, who am I now?”

Because they consider themselves and the business as one.

And I often ask so many business owners these questions because I do so much self-development work with business owners.

And I’m always asking them questions about themselves, like: “What do you like to do? What drives you? What are your personal goals? What does success look like to you personally?”

Not the business.

They can’t answer that.

They actually don’t know how to separate themselves from the business.

They are one.

So I guess if they’re selling the business, are they essentially selling an essence of themselves?

Yes.

All of that.

And look, the reality is when most people in the workplace are wearing some form of mask, right?

They’re not being themselves.

They’re being a version of themselves that they think they ought to be based on people they’ve worked with, that they’ve seen, or maybe based on a parent or you know something like that.

But they’re not truly being themselves.

We’re an edited version of ourselves.

And I think as leaders, you are forced to be that, right?

Because you’re not allowed to be weak.

You’re not allowed to not know the answer.

So you’re treading a line where you are effectively having to play a role where you are the strength of the business.

And when you’re breaking down, that’s really difficult because you can’t break down in front of your staff.

You can only break down when you get home.

So who was Adam?

Who was the Adam in the mask when you were doing that?

For me, I looked up to my father.

My father was a very successful businessman, and I wanted to try and be that.

I tried to recreate what I thought that probably looked like, even though I never saw him at work.

To make him proud?

Yeah, to make him proud.

To make me feel like I have some worth, some value.

And you don’t feel that when you’re running a business.

Everyone’s criticizing you.

It’s very, very difficult.

Now, I don’t want to play the “woe is me” card for business leaders because that never normally goes down particularly well.

But they are human beings as well.

They are fallible.

They do make mistakes.

And if we want business leaders to be open and vulnerable and transparent, we need to allow them to do that.

Yes, you talk about you know leaders being vulnerable and that we should do this, but isn’t there more than encouragement about it these days?

I feel like this is what’s being talked about: vulnerability, transparency, authenticity, all these buzzwords.

Are you not seeing more of a trend about this now?

Do you think that people are talking more openly about it, and isn’t that a good thing?

To a degree.

Look, I think it’s partly generational, right?

And if I think about my father, who ran sort of big agency networks back in those days, agencies or businesses, they were dictatorships effectively, in the nicest possible way, but they were run by one, maybe two people, and they told everyone what to do and everyone delivered, and that’s how it worked.

I think probably my generation has been sort of somewhere in between, where we’ve sort of learned some of that through learned behaviors, but we’ve also found a way to bring in a little bit more, let’s call it emotional intelligence.

And I think probably the next generation will be far more open, far more transparent, far more vulnerable, and that can only be a good thing.

I think, and this is a really interesting talking point in general at the moment, but I think there has been an overcorrection on a lot of things.

Okay.

We are living in a state of overcorrection, and out of overcorrection comes the Donald Trumps of this world, it comes extreme opinion, and it’s happening at a time where algorithmically there’s no room for nuance anymore, right?

You’re either left or right, or you’re blue or you’re red, or whatever it is, there’s nothing in between.

But the overcorrection will settle towards more of a middle ground.

It will happen over time, and I think as a result, I think we’ll be in a far better place.

I just don’t think we’re there right now.

I don’t.

I mean, it’s going to be hard to know when we’re going to be there as well.

I think that people seem to jump on bandwagons, right?

Like you said, trends, whatever you want to call it.

I mean, I think I agree with you with the overcorrection.

We’ve gone from never talking about weaknesses to now talking about it all the time, and it’s almost glamorized to make mistakes and things like that.

And, you know, again, the transparency thing, people are now being very, very open and transparent, so much so that people are using it as an excuse to just be a bit of a dick, you know?

Like, “Well, I’m just being myself. It’s my authentic self.”

And, “Well, you know, it’s my truth.”

Exactly.

It’s just exactly.

So there are things of that.

I think that definitely, like with everything we said, there has to be a happy medium.

But, you know, I think that also comes down to what you said earlier about masks.

Like, do people really know who they actually are?

I think deep down, aside from what you mentioned, that you were being someone that you thought you had to be, like that strong leader or even the person that you thought your dad would be proud of.

That’s who you were trying to be.

But, you know, how do you know who you really are?

How do you know when you’re…

Well, I’m 50 this year and I still don’t know.

It’s a process, right?

It is a process.

I would say I’m quite self-aware.

I’ve done a lot of work, and I’m getting to a point now where I’m a bit more accepting of who I am, but I still don’t know the full story, and I’m learning all the time.

And I think that’s okay.

I think most people are.

There’s a lot of mental health issues specifically for men 40-plus, and it’s not a surprise when you think about it.

And this all comes back to what we’re talking about because men 40-plus are in a state of decline physically, professionally, mentally, in a number of different ways, and their egos are attached to their work.

And as work starts to flatten out or decline, their career starts to move at a different pace.

Who they are is called into question.

And we’re so committed to our work, and we think work is everything, that all of a sudden we have to ask ourselves that difficult question: “Who am I when I’m not at work?”

“Who am I when I’m not married anymore?”

And they’re very, very tough questions to ask if you haven’t done the work.

So it’s not a surprise that we’re seeing, sadly, men commit suicide at a rate of I think it’s four times that of women because they’re going through a lot of this at a time where you’re no longer allowed to be masculine anymore.

Yeah.

So it’s quite difficult at the moment.

And that’s why I think conversations like this are really important because it doesn’t take too much to just come out and say, “I don’t know who I am, but I’m okay with that. I’m learning.”

But does it take… I think that sounds quite a lot.

That’s quite a big statement you just said.

I feel like that’s a big thing to say, that you don’t know who you are and you’re learning.

I feel like a lot of people can’t say that.

I would think.

I mean, who is truly aware of who they are and what their purpose is and what their identity is?

A lot of people don’t ask themselves those questions, and they’re not forced to ask themselves those questions until they absolutely have to.

But when we do ask them, I don’t think a lot of people have the answers.

I might be wrong.

I’m now sitting here questioning myself.

Do I?

So it’s got very deep.

But I like… what should I say?

Should I say I do?

Like, no, if you do, amazing.

No, no, it’s amazing if you do.

But it’s also okay if you don’t, right?

I think it’s important to talk about this stuff.

But is that also generational, gender?

All that stuff comes into it, right?

Like you just said, you’re a man in your 50s.

Sorry, I know how offensive we’ll be about your 50s, but get past that.

You know, you’re in that generation.

I think there was less acceptance of being who you are, and there is now, right?

I think that it’s become a lot more accepting to be different and just express yourself, no matter what that looks like.

I don’t think it was quite the same maybe.

No.

I mean, I was effectively brought up not to ask for help, not to show vulnerability or weakness.

It was made very clear to me that’s not something that you do.

So, you know, even talking like this would, of course, be frowned upon.

I don’t have the same view.

And the way I raise my children is very, very different.

I want them to understand what it is to be emotional.

I want them, if they are sad, to cry, or if they’re angry, to shout.

I really want them to be in touch with their emotions because if you’re not, it can lead to a decline in mental health later on in life.

You mentioned you had burnout on numerous occasions.

The inability to talk about how you really feel and, like you said, all that pressure.

I cannot believe it was three years of having to keep secrets, being under that pressure, having to make those decisions, lying to people when you really want to be open, not being able to spend time with your family.

All of this stuff is not easy, and doing it all at the same time.

How much did that contribute to burnout, and how much of a relation is there to burnout and this identity crisis?

A lot of it.

It’s all interlinked.

And I would say to anyone listening, the one thing I didn’t do that I should have was listen to my body.

My body was telling me all along I was really in a bad place.

I almost lost my leg at one point because I contracted a rare disease in Singapore, and they couldn’t figure out what it was.

And I almost lost my leg.

And I promise you, I was in hospital.

My leg had blown up to probably three or four times the size of my other leg, and they didn’t know what it was.

And I asked my wife to bring a tuxedo to the hospital, and I put a tux on and I went to a work event that night.

I walked out of the hospital, right?

And my wife couldn’t believe it, and the staff couldn’t believe it.

But I was like, “Well, I’ve got a thing to go to. Life doesn’t stop, right?”

You’ve got to listen to your body.

If things are going on inside your body, you’ve got to listen to it.

And I failed to do that.

Oh my God.

You know, I’m listening to that and so many different emotions are going through my head because I’m thinking on the one hand that’s so admirable, which is kind of screwed up in itself, right?

I’m like, wow, he’s so strong, that resilience.

But that’s it, and that’s probably what was going through my head.

Yeah, I’m going to be a big guy about this.

And ridiculous.

But it’s also just that I’m like, well, you’re here to run a business.

That’s what it takes.

You don’t just fall down at the first hurdle.

All that sort of stuff.

You need to learn how to pick yourself up and overcome these really difficult times.

And on the one hand that’s incredibly admirable, but on the other hand it’s incredibly stupid.

Like you said, your leg was four times the size.

I mean, yeah.

No one’s… take a break.

No one.

Enough is enough.

Your body wants you to.

Yeah.

And I got to the event, and as soon as I got there I was like, “This was a mistake.”

And I went straight back to hospital.

It was stupid, right?

But sadly, I think you do get to such a stage where you are in complete and utter denial.

You’re not listening to your body.

You’re not listening to the people you love around you that are telling you to slow down.

Doctors were telling me, “You cannot continue doing what you’re doing. You’re not going to make it to 50.”

But I didn’t listen.

You know, it becomes an obsession, what you’re doing, and that is unhealthy.

And so I want to, because I mean, you do a lot of work with founders and helping them through this stuff, and you know, is mental health one of the things that they’re most concerned about? Like, you know, agency owners or other business owners, what they’re doing at the moment, because surely it’s a lot of pressure. Like, is that one of the biggest concerns that they’re dealing with.

Their own mental health or their people’s?

I mean…

Look, I think my frustration with things like that were that ultimately those things are ticks on a checklist, right? For a business, you are valued on your profit. You are not valued on the mental health of your staff or the mental health of the leadership. You are valued on your profit, and until that changes, until some of those other factors are considered important enough to be part of the value of the business, it’s never going to be taken that seriously.

Now, I work with a lot of really values-led organizations where mental health is really important, D&I is really important, um, you know, a lot of different things are very important to different people. But if you are acquiring a business and you’re going through a due diligence process where you’re looking at that business and every element of it, you’re not really looking at the mental health of the people or the leadership.

So everyone’s just focused on the profit margins and the growth.

Yeah, people’s primary focus is how do we grow this business. Now, of course, in order to grow the business, we need people to be productive. In order for them to be productive, their health needs to be good. So it’s important, and like I say, I don’t mean this to denigrate all business owners because it’s very important to some people. It’s very important to me. But the reality is, in business, it’s not valued probably as highly as it ought to be.

So what advice would you give to business owners? Because you’ve done it. Like, you’ve suffered burnout, and it was unpleasant. I could see how even the thoughts of it were triggering you, like the horrible times you were going through. Like, what advice would you give?

To ask for help. Surround yourself with really good mentors, people that have been there and done it. Find the right mentor for you. Just because someone’s been there and done it doesn’t mean they’re the right person for you. I could be great for someone and not so good for someone else, so find the right person.

And seek advice. Have those conversations. Talk about the why. Why are you doing what you’re doing? You’ve got to have a destination in order to create the roadmap. So a lot of people are just doing it. They’re not thinking about why they’re doing it or where they’re going or what ultimately they want.

There are lots of different decisions you can make when you run a business, but you want to make the right decision that gets you to your end goal. So it still surprises me today how few people know what their end goal is.

And do you think that’s because, again, they don’t know their why? Because of why they’re starting the business? Or again because they’re doing things for the wrong reasons? Like you mentioned earlier, a lot of people go through life perceiving success externally, how other people see success.

And I guess doing things because they want to impress other people, whether it’s a parent, like you said, fulfilling that, or even a partner, trying to make someone else proud. You’re doing it to, say, put a middle finger up to someone else who didn’t give you a shot or an opportunity.

Or it’s just a job and you’re doing it for security and money.

Look, we’re all human beings. That’s part of everyone’s journey. Some people probably have a bit more depth, and others have less. We’re all here for different reasons. Just understand what your reason is. Your reason might be very different to mine. That’s okay. But just understand what it is and then seek the right advice to help you get there.

So if you could run another agency again, would you?

Oh, wow. Would I? Look, I’m at the stage of my life now where what’s important to me is financial stability and my children, right? They’re the most important things to me. And financial stability for my children, not for me. So that’s my end goal. I know my end goal.

So what is the best thing for me to do in order for me to reach my end goal? Probably not to run an agency because it’s hard out there, really. So if I want to make money and have my children have a good life, then I probably have to do the quickest route to that possible, given that I have limited time left in my professional career.

And that’s definitely not running an agency.

No, look, this is the thing I always say to people when they say to me, “I’m running a lifestyle business.” I always say to them, “Why are you running an agency then?”

I’m trusted.

If you want to make money just to have a great life, why do the thing that keeps you at work all the time and doesn’t allow you to live it or make as much money as you possibly can?

It is interesting. But I think there’s this misconception of what an agency is because I’ve done it. I do love to talk as well, and I speak to people who want to become agency owners. I coach a lot of people who are at that point where they’re freelancers and think, “I need to run an agency.”

So I’m like, why? What is it? What’s the reason you want to start an agency? And the most common responses I get are freedom, I want to spend more time with my kids, and I want more money.

And I’m like, I don’t think any of those come from running an agency. You definitely don’t have more freedom. You’re tied to your business. You probably will have less time with your kids, like you said. And I think you earn more money as a freelancer, a consultant, surely.

Someone was like, you know, do it even.

Or even in the market or put it in an index fund and just let the money sit there and generate cash. Honestly, at some point people will do the math. At some point they will realize that the cost and the energy that they have to put into their work and the outcome that they get from that, there are better ways to reach that outcome.

And that is a previous episode with the guy who was helping with training, so that one. But this is it. I think there was a misconception about agency world, and it is a bit messed up. So I feel like we need to end on a positive note on that because at the moment I feel like agency owners are watching this crying.

They’re just like, “Work is done. Why did I do it? Like, I wasted all my time.”

So let’s just put out a positive thing for agencies out there right now. Whether they’re doing it for lifestyle, whether they’re doing it to exit, if they are running an agency right now, what are your biggest takeaways or tips that they could be doing right now to maximize either profit or reduce stress or anything? What’s the biggest advice you could possibly give to agencies?

I think for me it is to focus on a strengths and values-led approach, right? Both for yourself and your team. You want everyone working optimally to their strengths. And where a lot of businesses go wrong, agencies or otherwise, is people fixate on their weaknesses.

Work to your strengths. Have everyone working to their strengths, and the business will automatically do better. Work to your values and you’re less likely to burn out. Have very clear values and hire people that live those values, that believe in those values, that have the same values.

Make sure you hire different people to you. Don’t hire people in your own image, but hire people that have a value alignment because that’s really important. People will be more productive. They will enjoy what they do more. There’ll be a nicer culture if everyone buys into the values of the organization.

So strengths and values, I always think. And when I’m coaching people, it’s all strengths and values. That’s where I would focus as a business.

Definitely always think about change. Always think about pivoting. Don’t have a fixed mindset. Have a growth mindset. So important as a leader, especially today because things are changing all around us all the time.

Make sure that you’re able to pivot constantly. Come up with innovative ideas about how you can change or do things differently. Find the people that have the strengths to innovate that can help deliver that.

So those are definitely the things that I would think about were I running another agency.

Another thing I would say is do a coaching course.

Interesting.

Yeah. When I did my coaching course, I instantly regretted not doing it whilst I still was managing people. I would have been a far better manager.

I read a book, I think it’s called The Coaching Manual. I’d like to put the reference to the book in the show notes because it’s excellent and actually just helps you ask the right questions to get the most out of your staff.

As a leader, it’s all about asking questions and being curious. It is not about talking. It is about listening.

I think there’s a big difference because people don’t realize the difference between being a manager and being a leader and how you do that. People assume that being a manager is telling people what to do, but actually, like I said, you can get so much more from them and understand who they really are as people if you ask them questions and just let them talk.

Definitely.

So I love that advice, and I feel like all the advice you’ve given today, and that especially at the end, is not just applicable to agencies. Actually, it is applicable to almost every business.

So I hope so. And look, I certainly don’t want to sound depressing or take the tone, you know, towards a negative path. I’m a very optimistic person. I’m very positive about where things are going.

We definitely live in challenging times, and there are definitely challenging things happening. But the more we talk about that, the more we can preempt it and make sure those things don’t happen to us. And that’s all I want to do here. I want to stop bad things from happening to other people.

Yeah, and I think that’s it. And I think that people shouldn’t view it as depressing, but actually it’s just no bullshit and just being realistic about the situation. And I think the more realistic you are, then the more you can actually tackle it and be prepared for what’s ahead.

I think, like I said, it is positive ahead. We just need to prepare for it.

Absolutely.

Thank you so much for everything.

My pleasure. Thank you.

Yay!