Then I subsequently found out globally 2.3 billion people, I’m saying billion, which is about 33% of our global population, also have bladder issues.

When did you feel comfortable talking about it and saying, look, I have a UTI. I am just a teenage girl going through a lot.

I need to take care of my health, and it doesn’t matter if anyone sees it as a taboo or not.

Actually, that doesn’t matter that much. It matters to me that I feel good and I feel okay.

No Bullshit Talks is a podcast for entrepreneurs by entrepreneurs.

There’s too much bullshit out there, especially when it comes to business.

This podcast aims to highlight what’s true and what’s not in the world of entrepreneurship, bringing you honest and raw conversations about the roller coaster that is entrepreneurship.

Each week, my guest will be a high-performing entrepreneur, sharing the ups and downs of their journey and helping you prepare for the road ahead while providing you with actionable insights and absolute gems of knowledge.

Stay tuned as I introduce this week’s guest.

Peony Li is the founder of Jude, a healthcare company that smashes bladder taboos.

She’s raised the highest amount of money pre-seed of any UK female founder and even turned down the Dragons’ investment on Dragons’ Den.

Peony’s dedication to healthcare was even shown during the pandemic when she helped distribute 6 million pieces of PPE to care homes and frontline workers.

I present to you this week’s guest, Peony Li.

So welcome Peony to No Bullshit Talks. Thank you so much for being here today.

So good to be here. Thank you for having me.

I’m so excited to talk about your journey because you’ve got a lot to talk about and I want to cover a few things.

But I guess for our audience who don’t know you, do you want to just describe a little bit about who you are and what you do?

I’m Peony. I’m the founder of Jude.

Jude is on a mission to break what I think is Britain’s last greatest taboo, which is bladder health and incontinence.

People don’t want to talk about this topic. It’s embarrassing.

But we are doing that, and we have a solution for people in the form of a supplement that people can take to really care for themselves.

So yeah, that’s what Jude is about.

So what made you start this? Because it’s quite a random company. It’s very niche.

So there’s definitely a story behind it. You don’t just go into bladder health on a whim.

So tell me about that.

Exactly.

So, I had a 10-year-long bladder infection when I was 14 years old, and it was just impossible to live a full life.

Because every recess I’m running to the toilet, every meeting I’m running to the toilet as well, you know, in my earlier career.

And not just that, it’s the pain. When I go on a holiday, it’s the anxiety of actually going out of my house.

I don’t drink as much water because I was worried.

And actually it’s every single aspect of my life that I have to adjust and adapt.

And I think as women we’re so good at adapting to situations, and you know, we’re amazing wonderful creatures.

But at the same time, when it comes to women’s health, when we’re suffering, we don’t tell other people.

We don’t want to seek help.

And for me, 10 years has been adjusting my lifestyle in such a bad way to adapt for my bladder health.

And one day I just woke up and I said, you know, I need to change this.

And through nutrition, diet, actually seeking out support from different people, I’m now completely free of any bladder issues.

And then I subsequently found out globally 2.3 billion people, I’m saying billion, which is about 33% of our global population, it’s crazy, also have bladder issues that range from UTI, from overactive bladder…

To bladder incontinence.

And somehow it’s not being talked about.

And I was thinking about why. It’s just because it is so embarrassing.

It is. I feel like because of that, if someone says, “Oh, I have a UTI,” you think, “Ew, you’re dirty.”

Yeah. I know.

That’s probably the reaction, right?

It would be like, “Oh, what’s wrong with you? What, do you not clean yourself?”

And that’s, I think, probably the image that people would say.

And I guess it’s going to be education, right, first of all, about UTI and how they’re caused.

So I want to talk about that because you were 14.

Did you even tell anyone?

Because if I had a UTI at that age, there’s no way I’m telling anyone because it’s embarrassing.

So it is really embarrassing.

I think one of the sort of main blockers for me, why I stopped seeking help, is because I went to a doctor and he asked me, “Have you already had sex?” when you were 14 years old, because that is one of the main causes of UTI.

And I was so embarrassed because I haven’t had sex.

And I don’t know why he would ask this question.

And so my mom was there and she was looking at me and I was like, dude, I don’t know why this is happening to me.

I’m already in pain and then you’re asking me this question.

And so then from there on, when I had recurring UTIs, I just didn’t want to say anything.

And I didn’t want to go to another doctor that’s going to ask me some similar awkward questions.

And so I think people do draw these symptoms and these issues exactly as you said, like somehow that you are not controlling yourself well.

And I think, you know, the word incontinence actually started from Shakespeare’s time and it actually does not mean urinary incontinence.

It just means you’re completely out of control.

And so I think, you know, the stigma that’s associated first with the language and the word is so entrenched in us.

But also just leaking we, like who wants to talk about that at all?

And so yeah, that’s I think what happened to me.

And I think what happened to so many people.

See, I think when I hear incontinence, I think old grannies.

That’s what I think.

And it’s so, even I’m saying that and I’m not someone who I would consider to be judgmental or anything.

But when you think word association, you say hear incontinence, I’ve been giant nappies and then grannies who can’t control themselves…

Exactly, care homes and smell and all of that.

And like if you’re just having a breakfast and then somebody says incontinence, you’re just like, why are you talking about that?

Exactly. Right.

And so I think it’s so interesting because when I started the company, I didn’t tell a single soul that I’m going to work on incontinence because I knew people were going to have that sort of reaction.

But I thought to myself, well let me prove it to you, how I can modernize it, how I can make it cool.

And when I started to do that, and then people started to say, “Oh, a young woman is doing something in incontinence.”

And I should take a look what that really is about.

And we’re slowly, gradually, really changing that dialogue.

And you know, we’re also very careful with the words that we use as well.

So instead of incontinence we use leaks.

It’s a little bit better.

It’s a bit more normalized, I feel.

It’s a bit more personal, right?

It’s less medical but it’s actually just a bit more human.

Exactly.

Or like if you just never leak but you always need to go to the toilet, it’s just like, “Oh, that gotta-go moment. Oh gosh.”

And people find it better to digest these related symptoms that they also experience.

But when you say the word incontinence, even if they have bladder issues, they’re just like, “I do not have this issue.”

So I think a few things, right?

Like what I do for you know promoting this category and this awareness is that I’m just going to come out and say, I have this issue.

I have UTI.

I have leaks.

I had incontinence.

But you don’t have to have it.

Yeah, and I think that’s how it all started.

You were 14 when you first had this and you were in Hong Kong still, right?

Yeah, I was in Hong Kong.

So for me that is even more shocking because so many things out there are more taboo.

I know that even for women, like periods were taboo.

My mom’s Chinese, and I think you knew already.

And so she told me all the stuff about her culture growing up.

And she was saying all the things, and when she started having a period as well, she couldn’t talk about it.

It was taboo.

Couldn’t be easy say stuff.

And so for me, I’m more surprised because it’s even more taboo in your culture in Hong Kong.

When did you feel comfortable talking about this and saying, “Look, I have a UTI. I am not dirty. I don’t sleep around. And I am just a teenage girl going through a lot. Please support me and don’t think of me in a disgusting way.”

Like how was that for your age?

I think it has been quite debilitating actually because nobody knows what I’m going through.

And everyone was just like, “Oh, Peony is going to the toilet again.”

You know, at school.

“Oh Peony, why do you have to go to the toilet so often?”

And I think, you know, when you’re teenagers you’re all quite mean.

Yeah, definitely.

So in Hong Kong I actually had a terrible time.

But I came to the UK when I was about 15 or 16 years old and people are a little bit more relaxed, I think, about these issues.

And it’s not really until my early career.

There was a time that I needed to take time off work because of my UTI.

I told my line manager, “I had a UTI. Sorry, I have to take time off today to go to A&E.”

And she told everyone in the company that I had a UTI.

Whoa. She did that?!

And then I was like, “Oh my God.”

I was with the impression that that is going to be just me and you.

This is what I told my line manager.

And I think what she told me was quite a revelation and it really changed my mind about my own issue.

She was like, “In my country” — she’s from Germany — “in my country UTI is not associated with anything dirty.”

“It’s literally just maybe you sweat a lot, or after doing some sports event and you had a UTI, or maybe you haven’t had enough water.”

“And from my point of view it’s a very common thing.”

Interesting.

And I was like, “Oh yeah, you’re right.”

Why am I so paranoid about it?

Why should I be paranoid about it?

Actually, I was ill.

And so I need to have the sympathy.

And I’m like in pain.

So after that I was like, you know what, this is the moment I need to take care of my health.

And it doesn’t matter if anyone sees it as a taboo or not.

Actually, that doesn’t matter that much.

It matters to me that I feel good and I feel okay.

And I think because of what she said, in combination with a doctor visit that I had in the A&E that day, was really that moment.

I waited for three hours in A&E, went to the doctor’s room and, “Let’s just do a dip test.”

“You don’t seem to have any issue at all with the dip test.”

But I was peeing blood, you know, just two hours ago.

And I told him.

He was like, “Oh, you know, lots of girls come into my office and say this and that, but your dip test didn’t show anything.”

And I was like, yes it didn’t because I drank so much water when I was sitting here three hours waiting for you.

And of course it diluted the concentration of bacteria in this little pot.

And so yeah, it didn’t show anything.

Can I get some antibiotics?

“No, we can’t prescribe you antibiotics.”

And then I asked him, should I just go private then?

And then he said, “I wouldn’t do that because some of the private doctors are not necessarily that good anyways.”

And now this is just complete medical gaslighting.

I don’t even know where to begin because I have an issue with the NHS.

And, and, and I love the fact that we have free healthcare and obviously I’m so, so insanely grateful.

But there were obviously so many things wrong with that.

My entire family work for the NHS as well, so it’s like I have this torn thing because they all work for the NHS, but I know they’re great at what they do.

Yeah.

But I have been treated on the NHS, or not treated properly on the NHS, so many times.

It’s quite disgusting.

Like doctors take a Hippocratic Oath about doing everything they can for patients.

And not just doctors, nurses.

But the attitude of a lot of them absolutely stinks.

Like I’ve had several problems over the years.

And also, going to be gynecological things I’m trying to look at.

And I’ve had the same sort of questions.

I went, I spent New Year’s in A&E this year and I was in the worst possible pain.

I was writhing on the floor.

And they also asked me the same thing, “How many sexual partners are you currently having?”

My fiancé was sitting right next to me as they were saying that.

And it’s like they just assume, “We’re going to do an HIV test, we’re going to do an STD test.”

And I was like, you didn’t do anything else.

Like they just assumed shits and that’s why you’re having these problems.

And then I’ve had, in the GP, I was booked in for a smear and they go, “Oh, you’re not ready for a smear.”

And I was like, okay, but you’ve put me in for one.

Can you do it?

She said, “Oh, we can. We’re going to have to throw it in the bin.”

And I’m like, okay.

Again, there are laws and rules around it, but also your bedside manner is atrocious.

Yeah.

And how do they make you feel?

You’re in this situation where, as you said, it’s already embarrassing for lots of people, as are gynecological problems too for women.

And it’s already difficult to, I guess, accept it yourself.

And then to have to explain it to someone, a stranger, that you are having these problems and you’re in pain.

You don’t understand what’s going on.

The anxiety of that.

To then just be gaslit and be disregarded like you’re just wasting their time.

That’s how they’re treating you.

And then it’s like, “Oh actually those doctors are not that good.”

But if they actually paid me some attention and actually, you know, helped me, I don’t care if they’re not as good because actually they’re going to be better for you.

And I just, when I hear these stories, and it’s like everyone seems to have one, I just don’t understand how there isn’t this quality control in the NHS and people are looking into this.

Because people are dying because of this stuff.

Or people are suffering serious mental health issues because of it.

And it really upsets me, like hearing your story again.

And you know, how old were you at this point?

You were…

I was, I think, 22.

So that’s a really, that’s a really, like an age where you’re thinking a lot about yourself.

You’re really self-conscious.

It’s a really scary age to have that sort of stuff going on.

And you’re in your new corporate job and you’ve not been in the country that long.

What happened then?

Like you had this situation in A&E, gaslighting you.

Talk me through that.

Yeah.

After that, I’ve never really been to A&E before.

And actually I also never really went back to GP and NHS.

And from when I was 23 to now, in the last four years, I haven’t had one UTI.

I haven’t had any issues.

But in between I still had recurring UTIs.

And the way that I really approached it was I went private actually.

And it was a 15-minute appointment.

And I told her about the types of antibiotics that I was on before.

She said, “Let’s do a urine culture test.”

“We’ll send your sample into the lab, we’ll culture it, and we’ll see what type of bacteria are really in that culture.”

“With that, we can then prescribe you antibiotics that actually fit you.”

And I was like, that makes so much sense.

Why hasn’t anyone told me about that?

And then once I got the antibiotics, completely cleared.

And then she also advised me after that, start taking certain medication, start taking probiotics, and watch out for your sugar intake because that actually helps proliferate bacterial growth in your urobiome.

And just a 15-minute appointment that is about, let’s say, £75.

It gave my…

£75?

That was going to be my question.

How much did that cost?

It’s expensive.

It’s expensive.

That’s actually not that bad for your health.

Exactly.

And so I think, you know, it’s the difference that I’m seeing with the quality of advice, with how personalized they can get.

And then it is my long-term health.

They’ve given me information about what I can do.

And so I started watching out for my sugar intake.

I cut down dairy because it’s actually quite inflammatory.

So, you know, the coffee that I’m having today is non-dairy.

I started eating more fiber.

I started drinking more water because of the fear.

You know, it kickstarted a virtuous cycle in my health.

And I want to bring that experience to everyone that’s also experiencing these issues, embarrassing issues, but not from a £75 15 minutes appointment.

And I think we can do so much more just from what we do at Jude to serve other women.

Oh, I love it.

Because £75, it is a lot of money to just have to pay to get the right advice.

But if you think about it, that £75 is life-changing.

And for you, it literally was life-changing.

And so it’s a no-brainer.

You’d probably spend £750 just to get that advice and feel supported and relieve that level of anxiety.

So for me, it’s like the NHS will be letting down a lot of people because they could be supporting people out there.

It is difficult.

I mean there is some level of truth to what that guy said about they’re not that good out there in terms of private doctors.

Because some are that way.

Some are doctors who have not done so well and they’ve gone into private because it’s easier and they can make a quick buck.

And some might not have good ethics.

But there are more independent health companies out there than ever before right now.

Yeah right.

And the fact that there are so many and they’re all doing quite well shows you there’s an absolute need.

And we are all worried about our health and we’re not getting the treatment out there.

So with Jude, tell me more about it because obviously you’ve got, I feel like the best companies come from those who have experienced it, right?

Those who have realized that that solution isn’t out there, so they’re going to create it themselves.

And you are living that whole thing, understand it.

Tell me more about what Jude is doing to help other women and, you know, what people can do to help.

Yeah, sure.

So first of all, we have a community, a private community on Facebook Groups.

We now have about 13,000 women in there and they all have these issues.

And there is nothing that the community would not talk about.

From sex to UTI to incontinence during sex, all of these topics.

If you know like there’s something that you can’t talk about, we are already talking about it.

And that community is designed to make you feel less isolated, less lonely.

And through hearing other people’s stories, you can see actually these are the things that I can also do.

Some of them are already taking Jude supplements, which is designed to help reduce the urgency, reduce that gotta-go feeling and incontinence, and make you sleep better at night.

Because, you know, a lot of my friends are waking up at night, going to the loo three times a night, and that can already destroy your day tomorrow.

And so they’re tracking each other’s progress on taking the supplements, tracking each other’s progress on, you know, “I’m on week five and I’m also doing all these other things. I’m cutting down alcohol.”

And, you know, overall it’s a free community for everyone to feel like, “I am here to kickstart this virtuous cycle of my health.”

And so this is a free community.

And then we have so much resources on our blog.

Every single promo video that we do on Facebook and on Instagram, it always leads with value and advice.

We record that with nurses, with comedians, with gynecologists, with doctors.

So when you see Jude on your Facebook feed, it doesn’t just say buy our stuff.

It says, “Do you know that you might be peeing the wrong way your whole life, and this is the right way to pee?”

And so it gives you a little bit of information, lights up your day a little bit, and teaches you something.

You know, giving you things that can really improve your long-term health.

And of course we talk about the products that we have and the products that we sell.

We’ve gone through quite a lengthy R&D period to really bottom out what kind of ingredients, what kind of formula, can support bladder health.

So if I look at, you know, if you’re suffering from let’s say incontinence and bladder urgency, there is prescription medication that you can take.

And this prescription medication, 60% of women come off it after three months because of side effects.

It’s related to early onset of dementia.

It affects our parasympathetic nervous system.

It’s just acting against our natural pathways in our body.

It is so harmful actually that so many women had no choice but to go off it, accepting that their incontinence is going to be forever.

Do you get that situation, that mindset that they’re at, right?

They have to give up the medication because it was that bad for them.

So they’re basically suffering no matter what they do.

They’ve got a bad choice either way.

That’s horrible.

Exactly.

So that’s the only option currently the NHS prescribes.

And of course you can do pelvic floor exercises, which I totally recommend everyone to do.

But the sad truth is we are busy women and we are busy people.

We can’t even hit the gym twice a week, so how can we do pelvic floor exercises every day for 12 weeks?

And so what Jude is really about is let’s put a solution together that’s accessible and that’s easy to do.

And so it’s in the form of a supplement, a dietary supplement, where you take two a day.

And from 8 to 12 weeks you will start to see tangible, tangible results.

What does that mean?

It means that when you’re out and about, you don’t have to think about where the next loo is.

And for a lot of people that is a huge relief.

For a lot of people, you can sleep through the night.

And we all know the feeling of needing to wake up.

And so that is also a massive relief for people.

That sometimes a lot of our customers wake up 10 times to pee.

It’s all of that.

I’m just thinking, so many people I know.

Like I know people who won’t go to concerts or go out to gigs because they’re scared about going to the toilet.

And it’s like actually they’re not able to do things they enjoy because they’re worried about that lifestyle.

And you mentioned going through the night.

Now, I had a period of time where I just started getting up all the time in the middle of the night.

And I’d get up four, five, six times to pee.

And I started getting worried about it myself because I was like, that’s not normal.

I don’t normally do that.

Yeah.

What’s wrong?

And then I was so tired.

Yeah.

Because your sleep is consistently disrupted.

And sure, it’s like three minutes or whatever and then you go to bed.

And I usually fall asleep quite quickly.

But if you do that over and over again, you’re not getting a good period of sleep.

And then that would make me exhausted the next day and I wouldn’t be performing very well.

And it just takes a toll and it adds up.

And every bit of medical advice I got, they would just say, “Oh well, you do that anyway.”

They’d go, “Oh, if you know you will go pee, you’ll get the urge to pee because if you just slightly get woken up by something, it’s nothing to worry about.”

And they dismissed it.

And it made me more anxious because I was like, I’m still going every single day.

Luckily it’s gone down a bit.

But I might have had a UTI or something like that and I just didn’t know and I wasn’t treating it.

And actually I had a period of like six months of that.

And I was so drained and so worried about it.

Yeah.

And it kind of had knock-on effects on my business definitely.

And had I actually felt confident, had a community to talk about it, I’d have realized that I’m not alone and there was a solution for it.

And oh my God, what that would have done for six months of my life would have been life-changing.

Yeah.

And for a lot of people that’s not six months.

That is about 20 years, 30 years of their lives.

And so, you know, what I’m the most excited about is we’ve talked about how the state of affairs is.

Like there’s prescription medication and that’s really it.

And there’s surgery obviously.

But what we’re doing is we’re opening up women’s health and we’re putting our capital and our money into research and development to advance more in women’s health.

And that is what I’m just so excited to do more and more as we grow.

And the other thing that we also did is we do active campaigns.

And so, I don’t know whether you know, in the last decade, 60% of UK public loos have completely closed down. They’ve disappeared. They’ve vanished. And so, what do people do when they’re out and about and want to go to the loo?

I go to a pub.

They go to a pub. They go to M&S, or they just need to rush around to find something. And actually, that is a symptom of a bigger, I guess, silent epidemic. We call it our nation not talking about bladder health or not being inclusive of hidden disabilities that people have.

And so, when there is a reduction in public loos, you see people wild weeing. You see people doing all these things to cope with it, or not going out at all to cope with it, just not wanting to do it.

We then launched a golden loo in Covent Garden, free of charge, super clean. Anyone can just pop in. And what we witnessed was actually quite magical. We had, of course, imagine your grannies coming off from theaters. You had mothers. You had children. You had quite handsome men coming into the toilet. You just had a range, an array of people that actually found this really helpful, or that they just had that urgency that they’ve got to go.

And so, look, needing the toilet, having to go in that moment, is not embarrassing, is it? We just need to accept that lots of people have that. Let’s do something about it. It shouldn’t be a taboo.

Yeah.

It was funny because that’s how I knew who you guys were. I didn’t know what was going on at the time. It’s that classic thing where there was a mad crowd in the middle of Covent Garden. I was like, what’s happening? What’s happening? Is there a celebrity? What’s going on? I was just shopping.

And then, because it was on the weekend, wasn’t it?

Yeah.

And I came out and I was like, there’s a giant golden toilet here. What is happening? It’s so bizarre.

And then obviously I went and Googled it, and I found you. I just found your story fascinating. But how did you come up with that? Because I love a lot of your campaigns. Like you’re saying, you’re not just on social media going, “Buy our supplements,” which a lot of people do. I don’t think that’s why they’re not as successful. You’re about educating people and actually about finding solutions.

How on earth did you come up with pulling a giant loo into Covent Garden?

Yeah, I was a you know all we do is about bladder health. And within the community that we have, there is this massive long thread about public toilets that went on in the community. Actually, all of our ideas are inspired by people in the community.

People were saying, “All our local public loos have closed down. How am I supposed to go out? This is crazy.”

People are angry. And when I see such a visceral reaction from our community, we know we need to act on it.

So we thought about what’s the best way for us to address this issue from a campaign point of view, from making the government try to notice that there’s something that is wrong, but also serve the people that need it.

So we’re like, let’s just cut to the chase and do a toilet. Let’s just do a toilet.

But then how do we do a toilet that grabs people’s attention?

Okay, let’s make it golden.

That’s how it all came together. It’s a bit random, to be honest, but it was inspired by I suppose an unmet need from our community.

How much did that cost?

So none of it individually is expensive, but when you add everything together, it is expensive.

The loo itself was about £4,000. It’s not expensive. Then we needed to hire a battery, so that was about £1,000, and that powered the toilet.

In the middle of the day, it went out of battery. So then we needed to take it into a Starbucks and charge it.

What? I know. You were just walking around with this golden loo in Starbucks?

No, walking around with a battery that was very heavy.

Exactly.

I even had to be around Covent Garden at 1:00 a.m. on Saturday evening to park our car to occupy space. So it was quite a lot of hustling.

Then we needed to do a survey, and the survey is expensive. An agency is expensive. So all that added together was quite expensive.

But actually, if we’re going to do it another time—

I was going to ask, are you going to do that again?

Yeah, we know how we’re going to do it. I think there’s so much longevity to the idea because it genuinely solved a need for people.

It is eye-grabbing. It is interesting. It’s not an unmeaningful stunt for the purpose of a stunt.

So we want to do it again. And when we do it again, we know what elements we do not need from the campaign, and we know what we definitely need for the campaign.

Yeah, and that’s it. There are lots of this campaigns that are just stunts, but this one was actually brilliant. It brings awareness, doesn’t it? Because people Google it and they’re like, “What’s going on?” Then they realize how beneficial it is.

So yeah, that’s why I was asking. Is this something that you want to do? Is this something that’s going to be a regular thing that you could bring back? And what is the long-term solution for this in order to help bring more loos that are there?

Yeah. Actually, setting up a new loo costs about £60,000.

Wow.

Yeah. I think that’s the reason why they’re closing down right, left, and center.

Currently, this issue sits with the housing department within the government. But actually, we’ve been campaigning that it should be sitting with the health department.

The other thing that I think we can look at is a private-public partnership.

You know, M&S—everyone goes to their toilets. We have been having conversations with retailers to say, “Can you make your toilet public and available to people?”

Let’s spin it on the Great British Toilet Map. That will increase footfall to your health retailers, but also then you can identify and isolate people that actually have that health need.

So we’ve actually been talking to Holland & Barrett because they have thousands of stores across the nation. That would just give thousands more toilets to our country instantly.

Of course, this takes a bit of a while to activate it, but we’re doing some work behind it.

So is Jude only for women? Because I feel like men also do have this problem. Men have the added issue, I guess, of having a prostate, right?

Another ball problem.

Exactly. Men are going to be having these problems.

Again, I’m obviously over like you know assuming this and stereotyping it, but men probably have a more difficult time talking about this because other men who have prostate problems don’t want to talk about it. It makes them feel less masculine, from what the feedback I’ve had from men I know who have these problems.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So is Jude only for women, and what can men do?

Yeah. So Jude right now, all of our language and marketing is you know for women because we think that is the biggest health gap that we want to address.

For prostate health, fortunately for this country, we actually have more awareness because of you know high-profile people having prostate cancer. There’s a lot more funding in prostate health and prostate cancer.

And so you know we want to go into men’s health for sure. That’s definitely no doubt. But we want to do what is the most dire need first, and that’s women’s health.

But yeah, you’re right. I think it is difficult for men to talk about it.

Some of our customers are male customers. They’ve seen the success of their partners not waking up at night, and so the household is using Jude products.

It is overall difficult.

What we found quite interesting is that men who are active, usually in sports— let say cycling, football—these are the groups where they talk to each other about their health issues.

So if we were to start a men’s campaign, we would definitely start with the active, the sports side of things because they are the men who are actually the most open-minded and health-conscious. They also have the camaraderie of, “Let’s do this together.”

So yeah, in summary, men’s health in prostate health are not as bad as women’s health because there’s a lot more funding.

That makes sense. And when you said about the high-profile people, it just made me think that’s often what it takes for action to happen. That’s quite disgusting.

It is.

You need someone famous to die before someone actually cares. That’s horrifying.

What does that mean to people like me, for instance? Small potatoes. Does it mean that if I have this issue and I die, it does not matter?

Doesn’t it make all these women feel so inferior because of it?

What are your thoughts on this? Because you know that’s the case, and as disgusting as it may be, it obviously does work.

Do you know of any high-profile women who are open about having bladder problems or suffering from UTIs that can come aboard as an ambassador or something like that?

Yeah. It has actually been a bit of a battle for us because we know from our customer base there are so many celebrities that take our supplements. There are so many OBEs and MBEs who take our supplements.

But they would not want to talk about it in public.

They love what we do, and they have such good results with our products. I can’t name names on this podcast because they specifically say no.

But you know I think the time is so near for us to be able to get one person who can just say, “I’m open about this, and you have a solution, and we can all do it together.”

We’re still getting there.

In the meantime, we have some amazing women who we call Jude Heroes. They are ambassadors for us. They’re not sort of the celebrities that you see every day on TV, but they are influencers with 200,000 followers.

They are real women, the honest ones. They’re so open and confident and funny as well at the same time. That’s why people love them.

They can just go on camera and say, “Yeah, I was wearing a giant surfboard between my thighs before, and I’m no longer doing it.”

They say that.

We have other TV presenters that come to our campaigns. They are also Jude Heroes. One of them said, “I used to pee in the back of my car in my daughter’s nappy, and that is when I said enough is enough.”

Oh my God.

She actually shared that so openly in front of a camera.

You know thanks to these women, and thanks to the channels where we can serve these videos, we start to cultivate these relationships with women out there who are like, “That was me. That was me. I had to pee in my daughter’s nappy one day, and you know I don’t want to do that anymore.”

Wow. I can’t believe people do that.

And it’s so brave of them to admit this because, like you said, you’re usually not the only one.

By revealing something quite vulnerable like that, you open up so many people.

I want to talk really specifically there because I feel like there are probably so many women out there, and people are listening to this thinking, like you said, your products have helped so many women.

They’re probably thinking, “Well, what if I have a UTI and I don’t really realize it? Like, even when I’m…” just saying like I was getting up all the time and I guess, warning for anyone who’s listening, if we might get a bit graphic here because I’m going to ask you, like, what are some specific symptoms as well that people need to be looking out for? Like because I think that it’s not talked about, right? We don’t even learn at school during sexual health about discharges and the right colors and, you know, the pain and urgency and how often is too often. I’d like to go into the nitty-gritty details as much as we can because I think that there’s going to be some people out there who are listening and thinking, “I don’t know.” And you don’t want to go to the doctors thinking it’s just nothing, or they’ll dismiss you and gaslight you. So how do we look for symptoms and what do we look for?

Yeah.

Yeah, so there are so many types of bladder issues, right? So we can go one by one. For UTI, you have this kind of feeling that it is slightly more difficult for you to go to the toilet, and then you will also see your urine is probably more yellow than it should be. We have a pee color chart on our website and you can read that up. So actually, completely clear is not great. A bit yellow is the perfect color that you want. Anything more yellow than this kind of semi-yellow color is not great. It means that you’re dehydrated.

So when it’s combined with quite a yellowish color, or even with a bit of blood, and you have pain passing urine, you have this kind of urgency that you always need to go, but when you go it’s just a very little volume of urine, these are symptoms of a UTI or symptoms for a more sinister a supposed condition that you might have with your bladder health.

So when you have a UTI, definitely make sure you go to your GP or your private doctor. If you’re having recurring complicated UTIs, I always advise doing a urine culture test, always, because then you know what kind of bacteria is in your urine. And that is why I had UTIs for so long, because the antibiotics that I was prescribed were not targeted at the strains of bacteria that were in my bladder and in my urethra.

And of course, first I developed antibiotic resistance, and then second, I wasn’t even treated at all. Then once I had taken all these antibiotics, I think what would be really helpful is going on a course of probiotics because it naturally helps you get that balance in.

So that’s what I would say about UTIs.

I think a lot of women do, like you mentioned earlier about sex, a lot of women do develop UTIs after sex. That’s a very common thing and, you know, especially juices being swapped and everything like that. It naturally causes some bacteria and there’s lots of myths around this, so I’d like to explore a little bit of that just because I think that’s a very common way of developing a UTI, you know. Is going for a shower after having sex helpful? And, you know, does it make a difference if they ejaculate in you versus not? Because these are things that women talk about and that’s why I’m saying it’s getting a bit graphic, but these are the things that we need to know, right? So how much of a difference does that make? You know people have UTIs after having sex, and what can they do?

Yeah, so I would say if you’re prone to UTIs, definitely wash or even just use a wet wipe after sex. Actually, the NHS advice is to then go to the toilet after having sex because then you can flush out the bacteria that is around your urethra.

And let’s just talk about the truths. Some men are just quite dirty. Some men are just quite unhygienic, no? And, sorry, after that then you just have to take care of yourself, or just ask the guy to clean up before the event. That’s their responsibility because it’s our health, isn’t it?

And so but to be honest, guys that are not hygienic are not my type anyway. So yeah, I think that’s quite important actually for women. Before having sex, you need to know what’s going to give you a good time and a good time afterwards.

Exactly right. You don’t want to feel terrible shit three or four days afterwards with a UTI because the guy did not clean up before having this event with you. It’s not worth it.

Not worth it. It’s not worth it.

And maybe the sex itself is not that good anyway. So, you know, I think women really need to just say, “Love, what we’re going to do, but please just wash first.”

Well, wash first, and if he doesn’t respect that, maybe he’s not the right person.

Maybe. You should have some wet wipes in your drawer next to you and then, you know, just pass them over.

Yeah, totally, totally. So I think these are the things, right? If you want to go quite graphically, just quite honestly, this is what I find to be quite effective to prevent a UTI.

But cleaning up afterward, drinking lots of water—I think when I was very stressed… and quite anxious at work, uh combined with low immunity and then combined with a period that I was just before my period there was like a moment where my hormones changes and fluctuate that was the time that I’m the most I guess vulnerable to UTI and I think a lot of women probably have that as well which is like during a time in a month I leak a little bit or during the time of the month I might wake up more to go to the toilet or um I just have more of an urgency or I’m more vulnerable to UTI and it is because of the hormonal fluctuations that we’re going through so for women we have an important sex hormone called estrogen and it actually fluctuates and when it drops a little bit every month that you know our pelvic floor and our bladder meets estrogen and now urethra all of those lining they have estrogen receptors and so when that drops of course you know your skin is less plum around those areas bacteria is more prone to cling onto your skin because of that and that is why you see yourself having more issues sometimes in the month and that explains and of course like after like during menopause your estrogen level drops and that is one of the reason why people say incontinence is associated with older people is because physically we just have less of that important hormone to continue feel for our organs to work properly um and so you know when we translate all of that into medical terms and into how our hormones work in our bodies suddenly it just makes sense and it’s not actually that embarrassing but when you can then talk about symptoms talk about how we feel then yes it is slightly scary.

Wow, I think that advice is so useful. I had to ask because I feel like I’ve had this chat with those of girls before about what happens after sex and you know that’s a really practical so let’s talk about U what are the other bits help up.

You so if you wake up at night to go to… the toilet and I think a lot of people probably have this experience before either sort of you know for some months you’re having it for forever waking up more than two times a night is already a medical condition.

Wow.

It’s called nocturia.

Wow.

Yeah which literally means you were in the night.

Exactly.

So it’s actually a med wow so when the doctors just missed the fact I was getting up five or six times that was you know it responds.

You know why it’s because it’s a quality of life issue it’s not a life or death issue but this symptom has a lot of different causes to it right some of the causes can be quite serious some of the causes could be hormonal fluctuation it could be you’re drinking a lot of water at night it could be many different lifestyle issues it could be because of overactive bladder it could be because of UTI and UTI actually does um increase the likelihood of getting overactive bladder as well and so um it’s important when you have you know wake up two times a night for you know more than a month or two consistently it is an alarm bell you know your body is telling you that something is wrong and so if the doctor tells you oh dismiss you then if you’re not feeling great about it I think it’s it’s it’s quite clear that you have to seek alternative suggestion and advice from other people.

Yeah I mean I feel like exactly that there and the thing with a lot of symptoms or a lot of you know things that yo get there are innocent reasons for what’s happening to you versus really more big ones.

Yeah.

And I think that the problem is doctors obviously have to see so many people trying to filter it out in terms of level of importance but you can’t always be dismissive because you might miss one of the serious ones that’s life-threatening and like you said it’s a quality of life thing so for those who are you know getting up more than two times a night what what can they do you mentioned not drinking water I guess later what what else can they do?

Yeah I definitely would suggest not drinking like not chugging water after 8:00 p.m.

That early.

If you’re consistently having it and you’re waking up three four times a night I think it’s best to try out a few days that you don’t drink water like after your dinner and go to the toilet before sleeping that helps a lot I think there are quite a few things that you might want to cut out especially in the evening chocolate…

Is a bladder irritant so it irritates your bladder and make you want to go more. Uh citrus fruits fortunately is also another one, coffee, tea, alcohol, um and there are some sort of diuretics um that’s quite innocent that might make you want to go to the toilet more. Asparagus, yeah I love asparagus, so packed with antioxidants but every time I had lots of you know asparagus I know I have it because I go to the toilet more often and it just smells yeah you know I know and so you know they’re healthy for you but if you are experiencing these issues asparagus try to cut it down a little bit and observe the difference.

Um and what else, if you know when you go to the toilet what like we have this term called elbow knee wee, which is a it’s the right way to go to the toilet and practice that especially at night if you’re waking up in you know in the evening because what that helps you you lean forward when you do that and that helps you empty out all of your urine from your bladder interesting yeah and if you don’t do that and why we suggest that is because if you don’t empty fully um your bladder would have rested, you that little bit of wee sitting in your bladder and that little bit of wee will trigger your bladder in the evening to say time to go time to go you know.

So you just put your elbows on your knees and then it kind of is that.

Is it do with the way the pelvic floors so makes you fully.

Yeah, exactly.

I love that piece of advice I know I know and like all the training workshops that I go to or all the you know talks that I’ve given I always say elbow knee wees is so memorable and after like all the workshops people usually just want to go to the toilet anyway because I was talking about so much and they will just be doing the elbow knee wees and it’s fantastic that you know we given these tools again going back to that right giving these tools to women um that they is so actionable it’s so easy yeah so these are kind of the little things that you can do and I think diet is so important um you know the ingredients that we have in our supplements are just so beneficial for urinary health…

And actually there is this very little known ingredient called medicinal pumpkin seeds that we use in our product so I don’t know what you’ve heard of seed cycling a trend going on social media where people just take different types of seed during their menstrual cycle because we talked about how our hormones fluctuate a little bit and taking different types of seed actually help you modulate your hormone levels it is not right now scientifically proven how it can actually help you but people are more aware of actually you can modulate your hormone levels with diet which is I think a good direction to go but pumpkin seeds specifically there’s so many research papers about it and it is a traditional herbal remedy that has been used for more than 30 years to actually relieve overactive bladder symptoms.

You know they’re so full of zinc and magnesium and omegas and antioxidants but what they do they help your body release a natural compound called nitric oxide and so it sounds scary but actually it is not it helps relax your blood vessels but also helps you relax your smooth muscles in your body and your bladder muscles is a smooth muscle which helps you relax it so in the night if you’re like if your bladder is like I need to go it just helps relax it a little bit so if you you know are having some issues you’re not ready for a supplement just go and get some pumpkin seeds sprinkle on your cereal on your yogurt.

That’s amazing it’s very good for men helps men with libido helps men with testosterone building so overall it’s just a super food that anyone can have.

Look it’s been so clear that you’re super knowledgeable about the subject and so you’ve been building an incredible business and so I want to talk to you about the business side things because actually at the end of the day podcasts are entrepreneurship…

And I absolutely have to ask you your time on Dragon’s Den. Because it was great episode um and you know it’s a lot of people’s dreams be on Dragons Den you said it was yours in the episode as well and you know obviously you I love that they gave you so many compliments I felt great about that cuz their dragons were all all of you I mean s b want H you and he was they they thought you were phenomenal they loved the business but you guys obviously couldn’t agree on a price.

And I want to talk through all of this so you already done phenomenally with Jude you’re super successful you’ve raised you raised at the time you was say 5 million I know you’ve raised more money than any other female entrepreneur increase in the SE BR right and I feel like I there’s so many women out there any business owners who just want a fraction of success that you have and so many people would snatch that CHS for Dragons they only wanted 3% of your company right 3% and you were like no that’s too much.

And I watched that and I’d already met you at this point when I watched that episode and I was just like you are so brave like there was like you just like actually no do you know what I know I know what we’re worth and your money’s not getting there I was in such awe like I know was amazing but taught me through all of that your time with Dragons Den how did you feel and what gave you that you know confidence to say no to dragons.

Yeah well first of all what the what the show didn’t show on TV was how the dragons was actually really tough on me.

They were saw a little tough.

I was and that’s the other thing I can a little bit they were they were asking really difficult questions and my God you composed yourself I mean I don’t know how you did it because they were tearing some of that stuff apart and like asking about competitors and numbers and what else was tough what were they doing.

Um so one of the Dragon was like I think you underestimated how much time it would take you to go to these retailers cuz at the time we already had conversation with boots or Q and with Holland and Barrett and we were saying that we’re going to you know go into these big retailers soon and he did not believe it he didn’t believe that we’re going to go there and then Stephen Bartlett was like you spend too much on marketing this is never going to work you don’t have it I could sit you know these are the things that show didn’t show anybody um and I was so impatient you know to wanting to persuade them we have product Market fit I want want to persuade them it is not cheap to break a Taboo it’s not cheap to wanting to invest in research and development in Woman’s Health you know and I said those things to them but they seem by is still not convinced because his his kind of is like we want organic growth and social and virality and that’s what he is amazing at doing um and so actually behind the scenes they are very tough they’re really really tough but you know what is important for me is we took some of their comments uh in a constructive way so after the sort of the retailer conversation I was just like let’s let’s get this like we have to and now we’re in Boots we’re in QVC we’re in Well Pharmacy we’re going to go into 500 to and Barrett stores in in September and that is happening you know it already happened when the show add and then with Stephen Bartlett I think his advice is so valuable like our marketing cost was three times less than what it was before and so you know all of that what were you know a bit of a wake up call to be like I know that marketing cost is high but I also know we need to get it down now and immediately we put so much Focus doing it last year and we do it so much more effectively.

And when I say all of that actually it is just better content more valuable content you know we hire ambassadors to say it like it is and let’s not scare around the topic and just say it and that resonate with so many more women sitting you know behind their phones and looking at ads and so the advice and the criticisms in Dragon Den feel us to want to do better and do more and I think I believe I can without their money uh of course it would be great to get one of them on board like I still really want you know IG greedy or the Bor of me to be on board I love you know two of them they’re just amazing people but the reason why I rejected the offer is first I know the worth of the company I know the potential I know what we can be I think second we have existing investors that invested in Jude when we were nothing you know when we only have a deck when nobody believes in incontinence and who the hell is they invested 2 million 4 million in me and a deck and they believe that the potential in the company so on Dragon Den we already have the packaging we have these retail deals who have all of them and they’re still believing that it’s not enough do you get what I mean?

Yeah so did you feel like you couldn’t Pro what more can you do to prove your worth when you’ve got five million investors already before you even had a product now you have a product you have all these deals you have a professional brand you have it all and they’re still not seeing the worth was that kind of what made it you made you feel?

Yes and I think it’s not about the worth now is about the potential worth that they can’t see and you know we all know when we were younger we all know what we are capable of doing and we know where we want to go but when you talk about your dreams somebody will be like cheering you on and somebody will be like Sabrina you’ll never be able to do it and those people you don’t want to be around them you don’t want to accept that offer because you know that they are always going to be looking at you as lesser than what you think you’re going to be and I think it’s important in the Journey of doing things that are so much bigger than yourself to have people who believe that you can and I think it’s important at at that moment what really make me decide to not take the off of course like I want to be responsible to our existing investors I want to you know I want to promise them that I’m integral to them but then second of all is you know so many women including myself when we face figures of authority we seems to wanting to give in more but actually that that’s not the right thing to do.

I’m like and honestly I find it so amazing listening to you because it’s the most mature approach I’ve ever seen towards any business thing because and you’re still 20?

30.

Okay so I like you know and but it’s still it’s that insane level of maturity I don’t mean age I just mean because maturity in business and because you’re thinking so long term and you’re thinking not just financially and potential of this shiny big name that Dragon to come in and utilize their brand let’s face it that’s what a lot of people do it for you’re thinking about how it internally makes you feel and your self worth and being surrounding yourself with people who truly believe in you are real true leaders and you didn’t feel it on them and what’s so fascinating is actually when you see their cutaway and what they said after you left that move and to me it was more about them they were saying she’s going to regret that because don’t doesn’t she realize what a big deal it is to have us as part of it it was all about them that’s what I noticed and it was like she’s made a mistake because we are God’s Gift of business and she needs us it wasn’t that they were like she’s incredible you know I wish that she could see the potential of the investment and you know get our support so that we you can be bigger and to me maybe you’re right because the fact that they didn’t truly believe in you and the brand the business but they saw business opportunity but they were fully in it and they’re not fully in it I think that’s the important thing right.

The term believe means you you you believe in it without seeing it and we all have gone through that with believe in ourselves without seeing how we can be successful we imagine that we can be successful and we believe in that imagination that that’s manifestations in it and so if they can’t believe in that it’s difficult to even start a partnership but you know what do I regret it do I regret having a partnership with Emma greedy yeah some nights I was like if we can have her that will be great but that’s a different alternative it’s a it’s a it’s a it’s not it doesn’t exist that alternative so what I have right now let’s maximize what I have I know I’m going to do well I think Jude is going to be amazing and I I have so many people that support me.

So let’s talk about your progress since then though because obviously they had they were worried about competitors they worried about like Mark martic fit that was that was recorded a long time ago and the air took a while to air.

Since then what has been your progress with Jude?

Yeah so we have grown um about we’ve grown about ten times actually since um wow we yeah since we filmed the episode and then since the episode we grew about four times.

Wow so you are rapidly rapidly growing and hitting the market and your brand is brilliant your messaging is clearly on point you have a community which I think is so powerful do you think the dragons regret not investing?

I’m sure they won’t regret it because they have so every day they see so many amazing companies and amazing founders and I think you know I think about it as the timing perhaps wasn’t quite right or maybe at that time at that very moment maybe it wasn’t quite a good match and so we come across all these opportunities every single day and we make these decisions every day and so whether they regret or not I regret actually is not what I think about what I think about now is like it’s great that I got a chance to see these amazing dragons and they were very complimentary about you know me and the business using that I’m going to do everything that I can to build this and and if in the end they regret then so be it if they don’t regret then so be it it doesn’t actually change anything it’s just a piece of emotion you know.

And I think like you know how you’ve taken all the criticism and actually used it to your advantage and and the compliments and I guess boosting your confidence that’s incredible knowing that they believe in you to an extent but because you’ve mentioned Emma a couple times I’m guessing she’s the one that you you like right what’s stuck in you reaching out now like.

I reached out and she came back to me.

So what’s happening tell me.

I said um I said would you like to be our non-executive director and our business has grown this much it will be the same deal that I’m going to propose to you now as I was proposing to you in the Den maybe we couldn’t quite convince you then but do you think we can convince you now with an NED um so she didn’t reply my first email she didn’t reply my Instagram messages of course because she’s so busy and she’s you know a big shot right I love her and then I got Trinny to ping her message so then she finally came back to me yeah.

Wow.

And I mean Trinny is amazing I love her um but Emma basically very very politely um came back to us with such a thoughtful and considered response and she said we want to make sure everything that happened on TV is consistent with everything that happened behind the scenes so unfortunately even I really loved the business I couldn’t you know do um what I didn’t commit to do on the show because BBC is such a great channel and Dragon’s Den is such a great show so we can’t undermine their validity and credibility now I was like you know very well put I totally understand where you’re coming from but shall I see you in Shark Tank that’s what I replied and she didn’t come back to me after that I was like oh maybe I like that with the Shark Tank don’t know.

Wow so so essentially even if they wanted to accept the offer they couldn’t because they have to stick to if they declined that offer they can’t go back on their word.

I think that is what Emma took as an approach I don’t know whether that is like a standard thing with Dragon’s Den but that’s at least what Emma took as an approach.

Interesting because I feel like in business that’s not even the right strategy like people make mistakes all the time and you’ve basically shown them the potential that they were worried about so essentially they’ve told you an issue that they thought they had in the business you’ve gone away and proven them wrong in a way that’s what happens in business that’s what they want you to do and so for me it’s remarkable and I’m very surprised about that and it’s a bit of a shame but then let’s talk about Stephen B because he was singing your praises he clearly wanted you I mean didn’t he say something like I want you to run all my companies like that which is kind of nuts um you know you haven’t mentioned him is there not uh something there that you could think what could you not do something with him I mean he’s obviously got phenomenal personal brand he’s given advice that you’ve actually taken on board about the marketing what’s essential like that I didn’t reach out to Stephen Bartlett because I felt like there just isn’t that magic or maybe I’m just maybe I’m just too biased I don’t know um biased about you know I I love his podcast I like listen to his podcast and I listen to the things that he said but you know when it comes to intimate women’s health I just felt like it’s going to be difficult for him to talk about this and be forefront or an icon of this brand it’s difficult like this brand we need a brave honest loud woman to be championing this cause and I just felt Stephen Bartlett although he is amazing with the things that he does it just didn’t feel like there was a fit with the image.

But does he need to 100% relate to the brand you can have an ambassador versus an investor as an investor he can still bring his obviously experience and his credibility and having him championing the brand with his voice and belief in the actual business he doesn’t have to understand it per se but he could empathize with it and he could and as you said if you want to get into men’s health then there’s potential for him to lead that bit is there not something there that maybe you can look at is that I know that we all kind of we all kind of do this but we have this ideal in our head right and you have this perfect person you want it to be and Emma obviously fits that bill completely but you know is that something that’s maybe be holding you back because you’re just looking for that card there’s potential there.

It could be these are the kind of blind spots that I think it’s great to be talking to people like you to open my mind up and I think you know founders um the best thing about a founder like we’re so headstrong in what we believe but then on the flip side then we sort of close down opportunities that we otherwise wouldn’t see if we’re not as headstrong so you know having that balance and having someone like you to help me with it it’s just yeah I’m going to email this is it is happening but like.

I feel like that’s it and see only by way out because you know sort deal but I but that’s it that is the bad your other founders and I think that when you’re so passionate about something you are ultimately incredibly passionate about this brand for all the right reasons you have this vision of what it looks like and you can’t see any other way and sometimes that like you said that it is a blind spot it does hold you back and it doesn’t always have to be that way and I think that’s the importance with diversity and people with that innovative thinking to be surrounding yourselves with them and that’s it and I think that’s it it doesn’t mean that you’re any less brilliant it means that you just you’re very focused on one vision need other people.

Totally, totally he loves that.

Yeah.

So I just think like be really great to hear if you’ve got any advice for anyone else who is planning to go on Dragon’s Den because obviously you were so prepared your pitch was amazing and like you said they didn’t even show how much they grilled you I already felt I already felt that tension and you composed yourself so well I mean I was very impressed but it felt like to me like you were definitely feeling that pressure what advice would you give to others who are about to go on Dragon’s Den or want to.

So English is not my first language.

And what makes it more impressive.

Yeah and I actually have written my script memorized I written down many many times on paper um I revised it so many times I recorded it I play it back I listen it like it is a Spotify top one tune on my phone um

Love it.

And I was I was just doing everything that I can I even hired a speech coach for for for me for Dragon’s Den and every time I close my eyes I just envision myself being on the den and you know hello dragons and be that kind of founder that I see myself to be on stage I think a lot of entrepreneurs have these worries around putting yourself out there worries around is this opportunity going to tarnish my brand is it going to actually lead to worse outcomes or what if I don’t accept that offer like what like forget about all these questions and just go for the opportunity I actually apply to Dragon’s Den and Apprentice I apply for everything because I just want an opportunity to send this message out there about what we’re doing at Jude and why this topic needs to be out there and I forget about all the noise because they’re just noise you know I’m I’m very focused as you said I’m focused on delivering one message very very well and serve this topic its justice and that’s just all I’m thinking about so on that note because I feel like that you know you you are very gentle and that what is the message that you want to give and what change do you hope to see in this industry.

Yeah I think the message that I want to give um to all women is our health is actually a collaboration of our own individual efforts our courage and bravery our discipline and habits and with the NHS is a collaboration and so you know NHS private doctors they can all give you tools but you are the ultimate beneficiary and ultimate I guess owner of your own health and I think we all at Jude believes in that and that is why it’s not just a supplement we give you but it’s like a holistic plan that we give you to improve your health and I think at the end of the day if you’re healthier you’re more hydrated you sleep better you’re more yourself your life will be more full of colors you can do everything that you want to do in your life and I think that is what I really believe in um and then I think you know words for the industry would be it has been like that for the last 50 60 years like we are here we’re going to make a change we’re here to disrupt we’re here to make an impact we’re here to invest in R&D the way that you didn’t do it in the last 50 60 years and so watch out.

Oh I’m so excited I’m I’m so excited to see what happens with Jude and you know help spread the word as well it’s been amazing and thank you so much for coming today it’s been such an insight.

Thank you for having me I had so much fun.