You said that people find it more difficult to talk about race than gender.
Yeah.
I agree with you, but I just find it so bizarre. Whenever I bring something up, people deny racism exists, or they get really funny about it and they don’t know, I mean, or they accuse me of having a chip on my shoulder, or accuse me of making everything about race.
And then there are some people who do make everything about race, and it’s like it’s not racist, but they’ve decided it’s racist. And then because they decide it’s racist, it makes other people pissed off about race, but it’s not.
And it’s just a whole… like, what do you think is the reason why people are so funny about it?
This is a whole series, I know.
So, I think first and foremost, with gender, it’s really easy to see, right?
So we can count the numbers. I mean, the thing with gender, which I find hilarious, is we have reports that come out every year, twice a year, three times a year. Lean In, McKinsey, FTSE Women at Work, everything.
We have all of this information which talks about the disparity in terms of opportunities and in terms of salary, and everybody is really clear on what the gap is and what needs to be done to fix that gap.
And they’re not denying that a gap exists. Companies have the money to be able to fix that gap. They have now introduced schemes to be able to rebalance that, and that’s okay.
But they still haven’t done it, right? Because we get the same reports every single year.
So I go to all of these reports, and it’s like, okay, yeah, we moved like 2%. This is great.
But when we talk about organizations, I think there’s a difference between knowing and not knowing.
So there are some things that we don’t know.
If we can say, like, 10 years ago, maybe racism didn’t exist—I’m just saying, right? Because everything was still, in the UK, very subtle.
Like you know obviously there’s Windrush, but when we’re talking about the US versus the UK, because they do a lot of work between the two of them, plausible deniability might have been possible in the UK.
Just say, like, I don’t believe that, but let’s just say.
And I just feel as though with the gender piece, we’ve got all this information, we’ve got this evidence.
Because someone will say, okay, let’s do a report. Okay, let’s do another report.
What is the report going to show, and what are you going to do?
Like a coaching question: so what? Now what?
So you know this information. Now what are you going to do with it?
People have money in their pockets to fix it, and they don’t.
They have the ability to change laws, and they don’t do it.
And a lot of the lawmakers do not sit on… they’re not equally gendered, right?
So to change a power structure, that would mean people would be diminished in power. It’s a threat, right?
And people like to hold on to their power.
So that’s the way that I see it.
And when we look at it from an ethnicity perspective, or any other like outside gender any of those protected characteristics, they become much more difficult to prove.
Like discrimination, lack of opportunity—it becomes much more difficult to prove.
We’ve not had any more studies globally than we have on gender, and yet still the gender gap exists and it persists.
Right?
So for me, it’s like, okay, I’m going to turn up. I’m a female, and I’m Black, and I am Jamaican.
But okay, so there’s a whole… you know, we’ve all got isms or things, right?
And so I think for me, it’s around trying to dispel some of the myths, or trying to dispel…
Just showing up and being myself and giving the opportunity to other people from all different walks of life to be able to present themselves with a level of competence.
And I say excellence, but I also feel like there’s a burden of Black excellence, for example, that everyone who’s Black has to be excellent in order to be in a room.
When, quite frankly, people who are mediocre from different backgrounds are allowed to be in the room.
So why is it that when it comes to being Black, you have to be absolutely excellent to be able to be in the room?
I, as a person, personally, I practice excellence.
Personally, we’ve talked about this where we came in, like our bootstrapping and our standard is high.
But that’s because that’s just who I am.
That’s just because that’s who you are.
But I think we need to almost step away from the fact that just because you’re Black, you have to be…
I think, though, it’s really hard because if you’ve obviously, you know, growing up, you’re taught and you’re instilled that.
Because if you grow up in a country where you are a minority, unfortunately you have to be better than everyone by a long, long, long way to even get a look in.
And you know, like..
One that is allowed.
It’s literally like, yeah.
I just think you can’t.
And I’ve spent so many years in my life—I didn’t really understand it when I was younger.
If I was the best at something, I got the top grades, or I was the best at sport, why wouldn’t I be allowed to be captain?
Or why wasn’t I selected like you know to get the award?
Why is someone with lower grades getting it?
And I didn’t understand it. I just didn’t.
I didn’t get it.
You think there’s something wrong with you.
And if you’re not that way inclined, that you don’t judge other people by the color of their skin, or their sexuality, or their religion, and you’re just not like that, then you find it really difficult to understand that other people are judging you that way.
And I think I’ve really struggled with that.
So I get that, you know, for a lot of people who have ambitious parents.
Like, I hear this a lot from Nigerian parents too.
They come to the UK and they are fighting against the stereotypes.
And they’re very ambitious. They want their kids to do well.
And you know, we’re both from Jamaica.
Yeah.
And it’s like we have already had stereotypes about us.
Like, my dad’s probably just smoking weed and, you know, all like he beats you up or whatever.
And I’ve had all that stuff.
I’ve had people say all this stuff about my dad.
And he’s the most upstanding man in the world.
He’s never touched weed in his life.
He’s not a very good Jamaican, but, you know.
It’s the stereotypes, isn’t it?
It is.
And you know, he’s always had to be so much better than other people.
And he’s told me that so many people say, “Oh, you’re very intelligent for a Black guy.”
“You’re so articulate.”
Yeah, surprising.
Which is why I said this is why I reel off the things that I do, right?
Because people immediately judge you.
People.
So I’m like, okay, let me give you my receipts before you judge me.
Let me just tell you who you’re in the room with.
Because then you can actually…
It’s really awful.
And yeah, it is exhausting because you have to consistently prove yourself before you’ve even opened your mouth.
And it’s because you’re already on a lower playing field than everyone else.
Other people walk into the room and they’re at this level.
They think they’re at this level.
You’re down here.
And you have to realize all those things.
And you’re probably not here when you should be.
You’re probably still just here.
And now they’re like, okay, so I’ll listen to you as much as other people.
Maybe not.
Maybe some people are still down here.
And it’s just really, really hard.
In a corporate setting, it’s really tough.
And I can imagine you don’t want to come in every time and be like, this is…
But then the problem is they accuse you of being arrogant.
And that’s the thing.
So I’ve had this before.
And then they’ll be like, if I’ve sort of been confident, like, no, I know I can do this.
I’m really good.
I’m the best at this thing.
Then they’re like, you’re very arrogant, aren’t you?
Oh, I never got the arrogant thing. Did you?
No, no, no.
I think because also, as finance, right, you’ve got to remember in finance, you’ve got numbers to prove things.
But also I think I learned, I guess I learned how to navigate the space.
I think I got to where I got to because I was really good at, I’d say, the tango.
The corporate tango, which is really around giving people what they need and then backing that up with, like, my work tells the story.
And then as I got more senior, I realized, yeah, the work does tell a story, but then I need to tell my story and I need to own that.
And I think that was like the latter part of the five years when I was at Virgin.
In that same vein, I could be doing a kickass job, but if my brand, personal brand Patrice, was not saying what I know and talking about the work, and maybe people around me weren’t talking about the work as well, then you get other people to talk about the work as opposed to yourself.
And I think that’s when I’ve observed it in human behavior.
It’s around actually getting other people to talk about you.
Other people to vouch for you.
So you don’t always have to be the person that has to say, these are my receipts.
And that’s the part where I definitely see building a community and having other people be your voice, so it doesn’t always sit on your shoulders.
That’s been game-changing for me corporately and also in the space that I’m working in now.
Yeah, I mean, it’s hard.
And I don’t think it’s going to get much easier.
And I know that there are a lot of other people out there who feel the same thing, regardless of what gender, race, or sexuality bias that you’ve got against you or whatever.
So yeah.
But I think striving for excellence is always a good thing, no matter what.
