I want to welcome to this week’s episode of No Bullshit Talks.

And I am so happy to welcome agency legend Spencer Gallagher who is the CEO of Cactus who are a agency growth consultancy.

And the author of Agency Nomic Switch is basically like the Bible for agency owners.

I feel like we should say that is how most agency owner describe it.

Welcome Spencer.

Thank you for being here.

I’m fine.

Thank you for inviting me Sabrina.

It’s a real pleasure to be here today.

So I have put you on today because I think that you know you’ve sold to grown and sold your own agency.

You’ve you know helped so many other agency owners do the same thing.

You’ve taken agencies from zero to hero to be cliche.

And so I feel like you you don’t just talk the talk but you’ve also walked the walk and I think for me that’s like the most important thing in in in this sort of world for me.

I’m I feel like whilst I’ve been did it several years I still feel like a bit of a noob in the agency world and say I like my issues that I don’t know who to trust and I feel like everyone’s an expert right.

These days everyone’s an expert at everything everyone knows oh I know how to do that and say for someone who’s actually walks the walk instead of just talking the talk like that adds a little bit more trust there.

I feel.

But I want to hear more about your experience and and you know you’ve obviously come across agencies big and small success as for not so successful.

And yeah what what are your thoughts with that whole everyone’s an expert thing.

To gosh it.

Well I think your is such a topical area because you know there’s no question that I mean I remember talking around the subject of sort of key people of influence and personal branding and that whole side of you know if you’re not you know if you’re in two years from now if you don’t have a purple fact it was three years from now in about 2017 someone wrote an article then have a Brian no one will do business with you.

And so there has been this revolution we Daniel Priestly wrote a book in 2012 called key person of influence.

So that nine years ago where he saw predictive is big change and of course it’s not new because you know back in the advertising and marketing world David Ogilvy you know we had Morrison Charles Saatchi we had these kind of sort of you know ads ad agency legends who had strong personal brands but it got lost a little bit in the naughties.

It seemed to be able to hit behind their knees.

And now we’ve swung the other way.

We’re almost because of this new content you know driven world that we live in to get market share to get share of voice and the fact we live in a more human world where people you know want to speak to human beings everyone’s become an expert.

And so what’s funny for me is because I started captors so I built and sold Blue Halo I did a couple of years what we call an urn out.

Where basically I you know had I work for the to the larger group company which was a tastic experienced a massive learning curve for me gave me better insights into the the old school world as well.

A lot which is a lot of lessons to be taken from the past.

And I very quickly found people contacting me saying listen you’ve built a solid digital agency actually all the not execs back in that’s a twenty ten nine ten years ago 2011 2012.

They were all mad men they will the guys from the ad world they didn’t understand you see that that the speed of change would technology at the heart of marketing or more technical agencies is a lot rapidly changes as you know very quickly is always at the everyday you’re evolving forward what you do.

So I found there was a niche no one was really a non exec in that area and although you know the time I was probably about 42 I think 40 40 40.

So I was still quite young to be that gray head advisor in some ways but it worked really well.

But in the last 10 years I mean I’ve seen everyone now becoming an agency growth expert people who I’ve never you know pick some people who you know with the greatest respect you know and by the way I’ve got to be really careful I says because I’m not there’s a big issue with imposter syndrome.

Everyone suffers from it me included right.

You know I everyone has bouts of confidence and where they doubt and question themselves it’s just a human thing.

So in any what I’m not trying to hear is anyway kind of bash necessarily people who are experts you know that they that because I want anything in here is there some really great experts out there who don’t believe in themselves and they should do and they have got so much value to bring.

But I think the problem is that the top of the pile there’s a lot of people who are great as spinning and I see it now more than ever.

Like you know the the way people spin their achievements is just comical sometimes you know because I’m fortunate enough to have seen those people’s careers and what they’ve done.

And so sometimes I find it a bit frustrating the people have the same label as me.

Where I’ve spent sixty thousand hours mastering my craft and learning everything inside out these people have done a couple of years working in sales in an agency and now they’re that their growth experts and it’s like but you know.

And so I think it is difficult when this world where everyone is becoming an expert.

How do you filter also how do you because the we always believe you know when I was young there was a mentor of mine who said you always believe you always believe what you read the newspapers until your in there yourself.

Yeah.

And then you realize how much spin is in the newspapers right.

No matter what the story is.

And so I think we’re now in this content well we’re we’re reading things everyday and as you know I mean Instagram thing is no and Facebook is really where it all started.

Where you know it was this kind of different version of you that you’re seeing.

So I guess the question for you is how do you you were sort of saying you know how do you deal with that is to I think it’s difficult for most people because I mean it’s some in some ways there is this buyer beware thing now where you know the old days you couldn’t really research people that were trying to sell you things where it’s now we’ve got access to lots of information and we’ve got things like LinkedIn.

So it is possible for you to really do better due diligence.

And I would say that’s something that people are going to get a bit smarter about.

You know well you mentioned 60,000 hours I was just thinking that’s ten that’s six times more than Malcolm Gladwell says something an expert.

So you’ve definitely some sort of.

You know what though I still get a still have these murmurs these comments from people that come back to me indirectly from competitors go.

Oh yeah but he’s not done this he’s not done that he’s not done the other so it’s funny isn’t it how even though I’ve done all those things I’ve built up his ago.

Yeah but you don’t take advice for someone who built an agency ten I hear this a lot o 10 15 years ago I’m like.

You know harder than what I mean that’s what I would have thought.

Yeah I mean I think he didn’t have social media to like to get the word because of one in four chance of building and selling your agency right.

Then first of all you know there must have been some things I did right.

But more importantly to be fair it’s not really about that anyway.

I mean I’m in working with 100 million pounds worth of agencies every year I’m in real time every day.

I know how the market is changing how is shifting who’s doing what well who’s not doing what right.

I see it holistically.

But I’ve actually been there and instead as I’ve got empathy and sympathy with the owners and I think that uniqueness is very powerful but even I feel like I’m having to justify myself my expertise because you know people will attack me and it’s and it seems strange really that you know I think sometimes that we can’t you know be more positive about celebrating each other’s achievements and stuff but you know that’s maybe sometimes a competitive marketplace so well.

That’s it I feel like someone as accomplished as a year who for me it’s got clear evidence of success and a natural means that you’ve done done the war but you know and there are still haters out there.

There are still people who bring you down and it’s like I just feel that first of all I think one of the most important things that I realize farty late in my life is that you can’t please everyone.

So you can’t you can’t think everyone is going to like you because you’re just not going to you know that’s just not going to happen.

But you know if someone is like an imposter syndrome someone as accomplished as you clearly has the proof they can do what they can do but you still actually have some salve self doubt.

Do you still have people hating you like how do the rest of us cope with that house ever how many people like her scope where we haven’t done all that we have you know raise millions of pounds of an agency what how I.

I mean also when you are like for I think also because I’m now late forties likes really.

When I was younger I would have really worried about that but I just don’t care anymore.

Like it as you get older you you just do things become different priorities become more important.

So you know it is a good thing.

But what I would say is it’s funny because so I think you may have seen this yourself recently because I’m you know I know you’ve had some interactions but we always read about net promoter score.

I was a massive fan of Tony hsieh God rest his soul he passed away last week last year in a tragic fire was like a billionaire and it’s for early 40s.

And but he wrote the book delivering happiness which was as he builds a pose and Zappos was his billion pound business best place to work for and was a real inspiration to me.

He talks about net promoter score and I’d always talked about it to clients.

I’ve never done it myself right.

So we introduced it about 18 months ago he and I would just my business partner were just talking about that last couple of days and what we’ve realized is that actually now we need to use tools like that almost help validate our how good we are because you can’t just trust word of mouth.

So it’s a look look at the scores our clients give us when we work with them with a consultancy with them you know and we’re getting you know like net promoter scores on just like over 90 which is like you know majority 99 cents out of tens and that creates advocates.

And so we don’t now that we probably got about a sales team about 45 people at characters because if people out there every day on LinkedIn on social media you know praising the book praising our support our help.

You know we do a lot of sort of pro bono stuff as well and and yet and here’s the joke Sabrina.

We did a survey in our community a genomics where I recently read Daisy founders as you know because you’re a member of it and we someone came back and said something along the lines of yeah I see all these people saying really good things about about you guys but I think they just not paid to say that.

So good job and you get you know the validation that you’re getting 10 doubted someone’s thinking that you’re paying people to give you ten out of ten do you like.

So I guess in some ways there are always going to be cynical people in the world.

There’s always going to be people who love you and hate you.

You know that’s the way it is but you have to judge people by their results and I think you know to answer the question but bottom line is that I think if you’re ever going to get someone to be a trusted advisor to you it’s very important you find someone who shares your values.

Who isn’t going to be a yes person who is going to tell you what you need to hear and not what you want to hear because that’s very easy.

I mean I get into a lot of trouble because I tell people what I think but I do it because I care and I do it because it’s the right thing to do and not fudge.

And I’ve always been taught that by my mentors.

But here’s the thing I think you know you should only choose an advisor who’s trodden the path that you want to follow right.

So if you want to go down a certain like not everyone wants to build and sell an agency why that’s but if you want to build and sell an agency or you want to build and buy an agency and grow even bigger find people that have done that in your space right.

And that’s the most important thing.

Don’t take on someone who tells you what the hell are you they think you should do things.

Tell get off people because I can you tell me an example of when you did when someone did this like me and you can give a proper example with all of the knowledge around the financials and the whole 360 degree picture.

And so I think that’s the real key lesson.

You don’t don’t just pick someone who’s got a title pick someone who’s actually trodden that path before you and that’s the best bit of advice I think around identifying experts I could give.

Yeah.

Yeah and I’m going to go back to say that identifying it’s because you said some of the people who hated you said that some of them have had over spun their careers is comical.

I want an example not names to save.

I want example tired of spun it.

I think I think the most common but we’re not.

So what so my job you know I have a you know I don’t have a very privileged story right okay.

Act listen I have in some way but you know I left school at 16 no qualifications.

I left home at 16 you know I was I’m as a classic entrepreneur fail it’s cool.

You know I didn’t connect with it academically.

I you know I it was like 90 pounds a week 70 pound take home is 16 years old and my life was not looking great at that stage.

And through that through that career working in top man and selling clothes in my early days and really working hard to try and get some breakthrough get some success.

You know I was fortunate enough to get into sales towards the end and actually before I see my own business up I had three famous III sales jobs of which I was a big success of that for sales jobs as a big success in the first one.

And then my ego took over I was 27 or 25 26 thought I knew everything and you know and then basically jumped took a job somewhere else and got made redundant like very quickly for not hitting my sales target 08.

The bottom line is I went through three jobs in one year and made redundant from to.

But I had a reasonably successful sales career.

In fact when I whenever I went for sales jobs I always would take my payslips and show how much commission iearnt because in the old days that’s what you did.

If you recruit the salesperson you’d say show me your last payslip and show me how much commission you were because sales people are always on commission right.

And so we’ve lost that by the way now we don’t ask for proof.

When people say they can sell they just go oh you know you can sell and agencies of the worst is because agencies are typically very a bad at selling because often they’re run by creatives or strategies or not salespeople not entrepreneurial salespeople.

So so the example I was given this is whenever I give sales advice to people I often bring out my last paycheck a gyro.

So when I ended up to year are now I’ve got my last paycheck you know as I’ve also became an employee once I sold the business and I show it to people.

And I show it because that that year I won two million pounds worth of new new logo business and I paid something like sixty four thousand pound commission in one month right.

Okay because it couldn’t before nice either that or it’s the best paycheck ever.

And and so that for me proves right that I’ve been there I’ve done it I’ve 1 million pound deals or one more a million pound deals you know.

But I’ve also done it all levels of on it from sliding off building Indian restaurant websites when I was when I visited yeah but 25 pound now when I started shedding my mom’s back garden.

But to answer the question you know about ice I see people who if you do back and like a sales people who are now a see growth experts when you go back and look at the careers like there’s no proof of like they’ve never been successful in selling.

They’ve worked in sales jobs but because they know more than the agency owner you know and I know because like those people have worked in agencies that I’ve worked with and I’ve seen their performance.

And so I think it’s you know and again I don’t want to I’m not here to say sorry knock people because I think those people are exceptionally good at some things.

It’s like when they position themselves directly in line with what I do I’m thinking there’s just no comparison right it’s so far apart but and to it to an outsider we look the same.

Oh I’m speaking to you and this person and I’m like put yours like apples and pears.

Yeah so I think when you when you talk about the juice and stuff I think yell at the reality is you know just be aware.

I’ve seen people who built their agencies didn’t sell it successfully.

I mean they literally maybe did a paper swap or they got shares or it didn’t work out and it failed and they didn’t but they still trade on the fact that they built a solar business but they didn’t really you know like it wasn’t a successful exit you know.

So I think you know as I said there’s a there’s definitely a lot of it out there you know you’re right to bring it up and I think people the message today we’ve got to say to everyone is do your due diligence.

Yeah and that is the really key thing.

And you know and there are some brilliant people out there that’s duck get away from that phone.

Yeah even your stories just reminded me of my like first retail job as well.

I see where to talk about I went in Selfridges in Birmingham.

Started working in retail lady have you people if someone works in retail I’d give them a job my agency because it’s got to be so difficult.

Honestly I’ve people talk about it and I it’s really hard.

And I remember I was just they could have sales associate and I I worked really hard to get into personal shopping because in South which in Birmingham especially you know people slack off by having more the time but Selfridges obviously one of the nicest shops in Burmese.

Yes because I think what exactly was so excited I want to work in the best shop I like and I went there like the first basically the first year that it was open and I applied and I got a job as really excited.

I’m 16 and I finally managed to get myself into personal shopping because there was a one percent commission like on anything you sought.

But these are think that was I’m Lewbert on and get you nice and 1% as a 16 year that was a GC commission.

So yeah it might have place a love commission so that remind you of that was brilliant.

But and yell I’m you saying about you know you started off making those websites and 25 pounds an hour I was starting at 75 panel website and I didn’t make it.

Wow so I get ten years after me.

So I had to start somewhere to prove my worth essentially a buildup of Pompeii Leo.

But you’ve just mentioned something really important actually cuz he said you’ve actually you know you know the true performance of all these agency owners right.

You know because you’ve been inside their books you’ve been inside their agency you know exactly how it works.

You know exactly what’s real.

Yeah I want us because for me as an agency owner like I you know everyone has good and bad days don’t get me wrong but you know I go on social media and obviously I’m connected with lots of other agency folk and whilst I got scroll through and so some successes and they’re really inspiring which is really nice as well but then some people just seem to be bragging and it just seems to be and then I feel like sometimes you know it just gets a bit demoralizing.

All you’re hearing is is you know I’m doing amazingly I’m willing this client this client and expanding here here and here.

Yeah like how much of it do you think actually true.

So I mean you’ve been in there like and I and and like I said there’s a I think everyone creates.

Yeah I think everyone creates their own version.

What if there’s two things together in the first thing is that yes you know agency owners are very an entrepreneurs generally a very good at talking about their businesses successes and achievements.

And in many cases you know they will be quite guarded about the vulnerabilities you know.

So they’ll be very like they’re letting the good stuff.

And in some ways that’s not a bad thing right.

Because I think when I grew my business I would always talk about my business like it was several months ahead of where it was because I’m a great believer in self fulfilling prophecy.

I’m a great believer in you know the visualizing where you’re going and you’ll get there and I and so for me it was like if I was doing let’s say 80,000 a month which is a million run rate I would be saying we’re currently on our way to a million a half turnover right.

So I would embellish that slightly but it’s true we’re on our way we are on our way and that’s you know that’s but these days by the way people embellish it to a whole level right.

It’s like you know and I you know and I do laugh at that but but so first of all it’s not a bad thing but where I think it’s morally a little bit wrong is when you do it with other agencies.

It’s one thing to do it with the people you’re trying to sell to to your customers to give them confidence that you’re growing your big that you’re successful that you’re trusted that you’ve got experience.

But it’s another thing to then go to a competitor necessarily.

And and I would say mainly in the agency world I think because they see world is an incredible unique system of people who support.

I mean I I’m in the consultancy business now and it’s like as a good friend of mine said the other day you know people stabbed you in the back at the first chance in consultancy.

Whereas in agency world I miss it I miss it all my best friends now all my competitors when I was younger we used to pass each other business.

We supported each other through thick and thin we were there like that was incredible.

I think everyone listen this is in an agency world is blessed to a certain degree but you must as an owner not for each other but save it for the customers.

And then you say well how much is will the reason why Peter Hall my business partner who actually came up with the name agency nomics and the reason we came up with the name was because we kept going out hearing agency owners come to us really unreal.

Ring me up repeat up really upset going look I’ve just heard this agency you know they’re the same size as me they’re making you know X percent profit let’s pick a number 40 percent profit they’ve grown for hundred percent in the last 12 months they won all these new clients and they’re making out and there and it would be like yeah they’re turning over this now or whatever.

And P and I would go okay well because we know right like nine times out of ten we go into an agency and twenty five percent of what we hear is actually true right.

It’s like if I sent ya okay don’t be negative.

So 25% of an agency is probably when we do a lot of audits and benchmark so we go into a business and we’ll benchmark the agency.

And when we do the strengths list which every single agency we’ve ever been into has got a brilliant list of strengths you know if I came into your business Sabrina we would find a core your business that you do probably better than anybody else or you’d be in their top percentile.

Yeah then there’s like 25 percent where you’re completely the wrong approach is the wrong thing you don’t know what you do here it’s like there are a lot of other issues do what all that stuff so much better than you.

Okay and then there’s some stuff where you’ve got some opportunities to obviously like the typical SWOT analysis you know the 25 percent of it is where you’ve got some clear opportunities to improve and get better.

And then there’s 25 percent which probably could bring your business down if you don’t basically get your shit together you know.

Because as I said agencies you’re only three calls away from your biggest win and three calls away from going bust potentially.

So I think to sort of say you know so in go back to story so we went into this agency after hearing this one particular story.

All right they asked us to be their advisors and we went in and we obviously heard you know all these incredible numbers I went in and it was just that agency and hit that monthly turnover in one month and they’d multiplied it by 12 and then made it their turnover.

But it was an exceptional month.

And which let’s say for example set there’s sold over 300 thousand pound website instead of accruing that the revenue 100 a month 100 a month 100 over three months you know about accruals because now you’ve got a bit of an accounting background.

They just said we did thank you granny why mum.

So they tell you what they were 3.6 million pound business and they include the VAT.

So put the VAT on top of they made that their turnover and then and then the profit month was that month and so hateful 40 percent profit in that month but it but it wasn’t.

But on the year they only made like nine percent profit which is probably.

So the average is just everyone knows and I have to say this very carefully because when you’re smaller you have no infrastructure no overhead you know you can larger profits.

But often those agencies when they’re small don’t count their dividends as salary so they go oh you’re paying yourself 12 grand a year and yeah making forty percent but actually when you normalize as we call it the business most agencies actually make between 9 and 14 percent profit a good agency is 20 to 25 percent profit.

And yes we’ve all worked with businesses I’ve done it you may actually Birmingham you know where your Reggie from.

I mean I I work they see there they made fifty percent profit on quite a few million turnover.

It didn’t last long these things don’t always last but you know it’s soon change but it’s there are exceptions.

However on the whole those numbers are quite true sir P.

And I could it agency nomics because we wanted to take away the bullshit from all the numbers and try and give everyone a bit more of a baseline validation without you feeling like intimidated.

You go look this is the truth you know.

What I say it’s very easy for you now to sniff out those bullshit figures right.

All you have to do is go well say to someone you know in a business in the agency business you know you know what’s your turnover and it said it said million pounds and then you say well how many full time staff have you got.

And if they said they’ve got 30 well normally you can kind of so if this it starts talking is that you say they’re 15 you’d say that’s probably about right because normal a million pound turnover business is about 75,000 pounds turnover per employee.

But if someone says to you you know I’m doing a million pounds I’ve got four people you know the numbers don’t quite stack up and then you’ve got to go well why is it oh you’re including media and there’s all these other things that people can do to spin you know.

So what I would say to everyone is that don’t run your own race you know look the facts if you are going to take advice from other agency owners which by the way was invaluable for me coming down rakat big shout out to him he was the agency down the road.

He was a little bit bigger than me on my journey and he kept telling me what would happen in each step and I trusted him is everything.

He said that would happen next happens right.

Now I would say talk to three agency owners and if they all say the same thing then then do it right.

So they all say oh you need to use this company for for I don’t know lead generation and we’ve done it successful not if you’ve earned it once your someone says I did it and it worked go and find two other companies that would be my advice just to make sure there’s a pan and be prepared to test it and see it might not work for you.

They may also be spinning so you know I’m fortunate I can I get to look at everyone’s pipelines like probably what I worked out yesterday on average something like 8 million pounds worth of pipelines a month.

So I get to see where all the leads actually come from in the UK and they’re not what people think they are or tell other people that they are.

That’s the funniest thing.

So you mentioned this three people the reason why I said that is because that’s how I wanted to talk about this topic about everyone’s an expert because I don’t know where that went if I asked three people I get like six different answers first up.

So he’s asking more.

But you are say yours.

I just touched a bit ago on like you know 9 to 14 percent is a what a good agency should should be making.

So that’s that’s something I wanted to talk more about is you know what what does make a great agency like because that’s one of the things I think is hard about the agency world is you know there were so many agencies out there and there were so many that or do what.

Look like the same thing to a layperson.

I think one of the hardest things like how do you stand out.

So you know how does someone tell the difference between a good agency and a great agency not just obviously from your perspective because you know infrastructure wise and you know process is wise.

What’s the difference.

So I want to hear from both.

So like from consultancy wise growth sighs maybe what an investor would look like or bio with thing but also from a farm customer perspective.

What do they think is a good agency of what’s a great agency for example.

Yeah it’s really good question and it’s quite complex in many ways.

Because you know core at the core you know most companies most organizations choose an agency because they can’t deliver that service in house.

They don’t have the resource time money etc etc.

So when they then go to find an agency they tend to look for three things.

They tend to look for do that do their values and your values match.

We call it chemistry.

Do I get on with you.

You know and and chemistry is something that you know has been around for a long time in agency world is the people by people part right.

And in a service business its key.

And that’s why I want to try to prioritize their service and sell it as a product often fail because you know when it comes to anything that’s bespoke and it’s service letting your solving a problem.

You need to have chemistry.

So first thing is client to do for chemistry.

Then they go to cry chill so can you show me a case study.

Can you give me the peace of mind that you’re a trusted person I know you a nice chemistry trusted person but can you prove to me that you delivered this before what I need.

Because I need to know that you’re not just blacking to me that you can do this.

And if that case study is relevant to the sector and space I work in.

So you know you showed me a pharmaceutical case study and I am a farmer brand then then I’m got confidence that you understand our terminology.

You understand the things that need to be done.

So there’s some value in that for me and then lastly proof of delivery and results.

So can you show me how you created something that’s effective you know has it been effective in the results.

Has it was it a success.

Was it built on time because it’s you know was it was their successful ROI its marketing.

And so those three areas are the kinds of that see the high level.

But to ask the question what makes an agency underneath all of that great to deliver those three things.

It is like this five stones and I believe that the best agencies tickled five areas.

The first one is that they have a really good sales and marketing function.

And the reason why I say that’s important is because you know the largest as you know the largest part of your wage of your costing up here now is wages people of the biggest expense in an agency.

And they should be somewhere between 55 and 70 percent of the so if you haven’t got a sales go up that works anyone that works with you is at risk okay of you not keeping your work your team full up.

And therefore you might lose your team you might lose the business there’s lots of worries.

So I’m always saying to people have they got a good sales and marketing function because if they have it means that they’re going to be a strong business.

Second by rating agencies unfortunately you know without leads your you haven’t got a business because your customers always leaving the ends.

Yeah and your team will leave if you don’t win new customers because they’ll get bored and you’ll be saying things.

So the secondary is culture you know.

And and you know obviously if you’ve got a company it’s got a good culture its people using glass door now to validate agencies that they work with.

So you know you have to be careful of you’ve got to make sure that your culture is good that it’s the that you’ve got good team retention because there was a quote that was used quite a lot about two years ago.

And things have changed because the Covid but the average turnover of staff in London was 35 percent.

So would a brand really want to work with an agency with a staff turnover when one third of the workforce is going to leave every year.

No probably not.

So you know you’re going to want to basically work with an agency where the start at.

So we’ve culture is good the staff turnover will be low and and obviously happy team happy client and vice versa.

So thirdly proof of it.

Good operational delivery.

A great agency can deliver work efficiently effectively profitably on time on budget.

Yeah.

And and so and then lastly if they’ve got reasonably good finances.

Now they don’t always have to have world class loads of cash in the bank.

I think that would be.

Sometimes I actually see the business with a lot of cash in the bank of the most vulnerable because they get lazy and complacent around the way that they deal with finances.

But but so so finances is also the fourth part and then lastly mindset.

So is the mindset of the business of growth mindset or a fixed mindset and how you know and I think if an agency’s got those five things I’ve got a great mindset a great culture they’ve got a good sales and marketing function they’re great at delivering a work they’ve got the finances in good order I’ve got everything I think so five then that business is a great business.

Yeah but obviously people don’t choose them always on those those areas.

My best clients could tick all those boxes but most clients I go in you know at least have one of those five areas on fire in any single month.

And that just to give you that empathy and that you know sympathy look because I know use what you’re expressing is true you know when you’re growing a business you you know you need to know that you know that you’re not the only one that faces you know I don’t know 10 things go wrong in a day and two things go right.

That is pretty normal.

First of all let more things go wrong than right get over that fact.

We all have phases where we win every picture of year but I’ve got a client recently has lost six or seven pitches in a row.

It happens right.

We is you know it’s one of those things but normally one of those five areas is broken.

You know I would say they each month when I go into a board meeting so so that’s what you’re striving to do.

Yeah.

That’s really good.

It’s like you’ve just given an agency checklist for improvement.

I feel like that’s that’s really good like I feel like that would be you know once we were allowed back in the office I’d like to like could just put those as a big board on the wall and it kind of like you know you keep an eye on them all the time.

I think that’s a really nice thing is a really good way of kind of being a guest but you may come to me.

I think it’s really important as well as mindset and you know like you said your big person believer in like you know so self fulfilling prophecies and that manifestation.

And you know obviously positivity is it wasn’t negativity is just is evil basically it’s like toxic.

It’s draining saying positive growth mindsets really important but on that note is do you think that there are certain personality types who you know do better in the agency world than others.

Because I feel like like we talked about earlier you know in terms of success it’s I mean you know you’ve a saw I feel like sometimes those who shout loudest do better because it’s like that’s what social media is about.

That’s what we’re talking about Daniel priest he’s kpi essentially that’s what it does.

It’s like being everyone’s face that’s what his method is in the like you know be there in everyone’s face and people know who you are be the expert.

But like you said how how much of that festival is bullshit like you know you could have someone shouts the loudest and could be full of crap and it’s like so they could be doing that.

And so that’s the extra over.

But you probably know lots of introverts who are fantastic agency owners.

Yeah and you know save like they lacked in some of the other personalities I mean at that point do you think that they need to hire others with the other bits of personality that maybe complements them so that they can work together.

What what what what would you think of you seem like a trait like a trait in terms of personalities or trend or.

Yeah I mean it’s interesting because I would say that you know I probably have a really good mix personally of people around me.

Life you are extrovert a ver an introvert and I you know being an extrovert I can’t survive without introvert around around me because I’m I’m not organized I’m not detail.

And without those people around me I don’t function to my best ability.

So the first thing is you know I always think back to the first business because I ever read which was Richard Branson’s book and screw it let’s do it.

And he talks about he you know he built a team around him of the people with the skills he needed and you know that that’s very true.

So if you take my so you know that great saying was it you know you are the sum of your of your five best friends.

It was a famous Jim Rohn quote many years ago as a fantastic fantastic couple of mentor to people like Tony Robbins.

He when I look at my I think it’s right now 12 count them up three there’s six there’s so I’ve got a group of six of us.

And we had five agencies between us okay.

And all five of them built and sold for millions of pounds okay.

So the so the fact that we all have and we all didn’t know each other from growing up we will learn it learn each other through the agency journey will gravitated to each other.

We support group and in that group there is one absolute introvert.

Yeah and the rest and I’d say probably there’s two a verse and maybe the rest is slightly more extroverted.

So there’s question in my mind that you can achieve there is no barriers there’s no labeling here right.

It doesn’t matter whether you’re an introvert or extrovert you just have to do it differently.

And I think what some of the challenges sometimes with extroverts it’s easy because they can sell and they’ll just go out they’ll sell sell sell sell sell and they can grow because of it.

The introverts succeed they build the sales people around them.

So in this particular case the person’s an engineer there are a programmer and they’re introverted they’re entrepreneurial.

I mean as very probably more entrepreneur than I am sometimes but but they always tend to put themselves around people who will find them sales find them opportunities.

Also when you look at entrepreneurs as an example often they’re much better aggregators.

So Pete my business partner is an introvert and he and that’s again why we were so well as a yin yang effect of the two of us two halves of a coin.

And but he’s a great business buyer he’ll grow a business by buying businesses I’ll grow it through the sales marketing and I’ll do it through the buying as well but it’s but his superpower is growing the business by the numbers.

So I think whatever whoever you are I think it is important to try and find successful people like you again.

Follow people that trodden the path that you have before.

And yeah maybe sometimes try and find a personality matches well you know I know that someone came to me recently who was an engineer and wanted me to be their non exec and I was like no actually I’m going to send you to my friend because actually I think he could empathize and sympathize better with you and he’s done it as successfully.

So that said I do work quite a lot of introverts and we and we you know we work really well because actually I could help them understand how to build those bits that they don’t do and that is very good.

So I think to answer the question you know I think we all have self doubt in our belief of achievement and that’s the biggest thing that holds us back.

You know it’s the it’s the fear of taking risks and overcoming your fears and you know working at that that’s the bigger problem.

And yes do are procrastinators maybe are introverts procrastinators possibly I don’t know.

I mean maybe you know but are extroverts a bit shallow and a bit like yeah just do it.

You know like Branson just just go and do it they don’t overthink things they just do it and make the mistake they think about the consequences.

Yeah probably.

And so I think you know.

But there are three types of agencies Sabrina.

I just to finish on this this subject I think there are those agencies who sell a lot and they grow very quickly.

And then there’s a that’s what I call a type one agency and a type three agency is someone who is a developer of strategies to creative a designer and they tend to grow their business by doing great work great and great processes great work.

And those actually do grow the slowest.

No question.

I’ll take often those guys 20 years to get to a million.

It’ll take the salesperson 1 to 5 years.

Yeah.

So there is definitely what you really want to be is in the middle.

Do you know I had to move from being the salesperson to the one in the middle that could deliver well.

To my friend who’s the introvert he was great at delivery had to bring the salesperson in to help him move to the middle.

So we are all striving to get to the balance of being able to sell well being able to deliver well and not focus just on one mutually exclusively.

Yeah that’s quite that’s quite intriguing.

So I never would have thought of it that thought of it that way.

And yeah I guess that you know I guess that brings me to the point of what you do.

Well write your you guys are agency growth consultants.

As that’s what you specialize in.

You specialize in growing agencies.

I do feel that too many people focus on growth too much.

I feel like so many agencies just suddenly go we to grow we need to grow and they don’t understand what that actually means in the grand scheme of things.

Like they think that means more people or something like that.

Yeah it’s bigger office but like you said it doesn’t necessarily mean that you probably need to focus on the profit more.

Like what if you’re like you know you’re growing in terms of numbers but you’re not making any profit.

That’s not really you know a sustainable business.

I guess I would love to know some general tips basically for agency growth and and obviously not give away all your key secrets because that’s why you hire someone.

Some other day and I got half an hour on the phone with you.

I am not exaggerating P and I prop and this is the other thing you know sometimes I hear this comment even about us to go yeah but you guys have only got one way to grow an agency and it’s just not true right.

We I’ve probably five or six different approaches to scaling.

We’ve seen who does what the best in each different area.

We understand what the new trends are on how people are growing like you know it’s very easy for anyone to see you know how Carrie Rose it rises 7 is has built a three million pound agency in 20 months right.

And and you know your wet we’re aware of how that works and how it remember I’ve been talking about after four years it’s not new but it’s but it but also it’s a different way that that particular entrepreneur will approach it.

So you know what would my tips what would my tips be.

And I think by the way I think there’s talk about growth quickly because if you’re not growing you’re dying right.

Because what like so if your business basically goes from because you’re not you can’t do 1 million pound turnover every year right.

It’s impossible.

You’re either going to do 1 million and why are you going to 996.

But if you’re going backwards you’re going to go back the trend line will go backwards right.

And you’re not growing I didn’t buy you don’t have to grow quickly you could just grow by 2% a year or three percent.

Yeah it doesn’t have to but if you’re not growing you’re dying.

Okay because the business is going backwards and normally momentum spirals at one point if you’re going down it will remember it will spiral down if you’re going up it will it will build upwards.

Yeah and there’s not.

And so you have to grow because everyone in your business is on a journey of personal development and growth.

And if your team members are not learning new things are not working on new clients are not you know not feeling part of something successful they’re going to leave you and go somewhere else where they feel that they’re going to get more eventually earn more money.

But it’s not all about money by the way it’s about being paid for what you’re worth learning new things.

But how many times has someone left a job in an agency or any business because they felt like they weren’t challenged or stimulated anymore.

So for me growth is important but it’s at what speed and what I lost you know that’s true.

You’re right the ones that grow the quickest make the least profit because they’re investing their profit in growth.

All right and actually but that’s not a bad thing it’s not also not a bad approach.

I mean I’ve gotta be honest with you some of the best agencies they work with make the smallest amounts of profit but they’re building the most valuable business.

Because actually when you adjust the normalize the business profit levels is actually worth more money than someone who’s making lots of profit but isn’t growing very quickly or isn’t of a certain size because they don’t get the multiple put on the valuation.

So so I think you know to answer your question you know I think growth is important and I think that it doesn’t have to be out of control fast growth it doesn’t have to be slow but it has to be some momentum moving the right direction.

I think you owe it to the people in your business for that to happen.

Know that does say good.

But is there a difference there.

Because you mentioned about you know the profit and people using that and I said it’s worth more like the put is in the yeah business.

But that’s I feel like that’s great if you are going to intended to sell the business.

But what if you’re not.

What if the business is your baby.

A you were.

Yeah be in that business till you you die so to speak.

Yeah like what.

Yeah but here’s the here’s the here’s the the fortunate thing again about having been having worked with over.

And you know I haven’t got a mite on my tagline I’ve worked with 10,000 agencies right because I have actually worked with 1000 agencies over 10 years right.

That’s a real number.

I’ve not I just had a conversation or connected with 10,000 people.

It’s like that’s the point here is that I’ve been into so many businesses now that I see the picture and the truth is is that you know when you grow when you’ve got a business when you have a business right now I think of it like owning a house.

Okay when you own a house you decorate the house.

You may not ever sell your house one day but your house if you don’t decorate your house it will become a wreck and it you will lose the asset value that you have in it.

Okay so when you have a business you have an asset and you have a duty of care to protect that asset’s value.

Because you know what you don’t want to do one day is find out that all of a sudden you know God forbid your partner yourself you’re you know you’re one of your relatives has got a terminal disease and you need to walk away from your business and you need to sell it.

Because not because you have a plan to sell it because life becomes all of a sudden a different priority to you.

And so you know I live in a home not a house.

I don’t plan to sell my home but do I still invest in it.

Yes.

Do I still add to it.

Yes.

Do I still care about the value of it.

Yes.

And so what I would say is not everyone I would say most people I speak to work with probably don’t want to sell their business.

I’d be really clear about this.

The majority don’t.

They are just they just want it to grow.

They want it a success driven a lot of people are achievement driven or they care about their team and they want their team to do well in life.

A lot of them do.

I would say it’s quite surprising how many owners that I work with who their priority is not themselves.

It’s their team right it really is.

And all I would say is that you know if you are you know you know it’s always just yeah even if you’re not thinking of selling it still treat your understand the value of your asset and understand how to protect that value.

Just in case one day you are forced to sell it because of circumstances.

Yeah and you know and have it ready.

Otherwise what will happen is you’ll end up leaving and I’ve seen this before by the way.

So this is not this is me just making stuff up.

I’ve seen it many a time.

Someone’s had to sell the business because of a personal situation and it’s worth nothing because they never prepared or planned for it.

You know and they fire sell it and give it away and then they have to go they can’t get a job haven’t got a job because I’ve got to support somebody else and I’ve got no income either.

And look there are always ways around putting in people to run your business and things like that.

But all I would say is that you know it’s always try and treat your business like an asset whether you want to sell it or not it doesn’t matter.

You know you might be an income for life by the way.

One really good bit of advice I would give people listening if they do own a business is if you do have people refer to this as a lifestyle business and there is no right or wrong by the way in terms of whether you should grow or not.

Like honestly I’m not judgmental at all.

Like when I meet people I’m just as happy if they don’t want to sell it as I am if they do it doesn’t matter to me.

But the bit of advice I would give everybody is that if you do have a business whether you plan to sort of remain a 10 12 20 person business till you know till you retire or maybe you want to sell it to the team one day or whatever.

Make sure that the money you take out your business goes into investments.

Because your business is an investment but if you don’t treat it like something that will be worth value sometimes it’s not.

Both my parents had cleaning companies right contracting.

And when they got 60 years old they sold their businesses for nothing.

I mean they were worth 50 grand yeah okay.

But luckily they had paid their mortgages off.

They did have some in one case I did in one case it didn’t.

So my advice is if you aren’t gonna go make sure that you don’t just spend what you earn each month from actually squirrel it away.

Yeah it’s also your question in a very.

It definitely does.

And I feel like I wish I had that last bit like several years ago because I totally did that.

But I think I love the house analogy because you live in that house you’re not necessarily going to sell it but you keep it nice to a livable like yeah I want to be there every day.

Same as your business you’re going to be in a business every day.

One day I might have to sell this house exactly.

I don’t want it to be something that’s unsalable because you know I’m not planning to but who knows what’s going to happen.

You know kids leave home don’t you know I’m too old to do the gardening anymore whatever you know.

I love that and I remember the business from your book.

Which I was saying is the bible for agency owners.

So I wanted to obviously just finish off.

I’d just like to ask you about the book and where people can get it and you know what the plans are for the book.

So yeah so thank you the book is on Amazon and actually we were going to take it off sale but we had loads of people so many people still buying it that we just said actually because it’s what we’re rewriting the book because we’re updating the booklet.

Let’s say rather than rewriting it.

Because in the last it’s a three to four years since we launched the book actually a lot of things that you cut Covid had a big impact on some of the way that the more agile distributed workforce as well.

So we’re rewriting the book and modernizing it.

However most of the fundamentals that we still talked about today and the majority probably bar location and there’s a little bit of updated stuff which you can get in our community around the new business areas but most of the book is like 95% of it is still true today is alpha.

And so yeah it’s on Amazon go buy it but there will be an updated version which I think will really hopefully give it will be enough fresh new content in there to give everyone you know even more some more great reading.

And that should be finished I’m peeing I write in the last couple of chapters in March so I’m hoping sort of probably mid June time I’ll be ready.

Exciting very exciting.

Hard work writing a book by the way.

Yeah.

Uh it’s community obviously that for me mentioned so many times about the support bubble you mentioned your friends.

Like I don’t think I would have survived covid without the agency nomics community honestly.

It’s been it’s been amazing.

Like some of the people I’ve met in there.

Like I said the agency owners and I definitely think you’re right about surrounding yourself with the right type of people who have similar goals and things like that.

Because yeah I do get intimidated by some of the stuff out there whether it’s fluff whether it’s thin whether it’s real I don’t know but I definitely get intimidated.

I think that surrounding myself with a few with similar goals and values has been so invaluable to me.

And so I’m obviously super grateful that I’ve met you guys and you know everything you’ve done and so it’s been amazing.

I listen you’ve been a fantastic supporter of us as well.

And I think you’re right that we I remember when I first did cactus that how hard it was for me in my early days of my agency.

Like I nearly went out of business eight times.

I was you know I had many times when I couldn’t I mean I paid myself since Pete joined I pay myself every month but there were months when I didn’t pay myself right and it happens.

Okay.

And so it’s not never yeah some people do have it easy all the way through that look there’s no question but the majority don’t right.

The majority if they grow they eventually they start running out of cash and you know it happens.

It will all go businesses run out of cash at some stage you know it’s never an easy journey growing a business.

When you hear other people tell you good stories you’re not hearing everything.

Trust me I go into businesses and I know that everyone’s got a problem and some people have got a really big problem.

They can’t even see their own problem right.

I know there were times when I thought I had everything right and then the business just broke and I had to start again to solve it.

And just when I nailed my processes they broke and I had to redo them.

So it is a continual journey of improvement.

So you know hearing you say that you struggled actually makes me feel better.

It’s actually a certain point it’s just like oh you actually struggled too it’s not that easy.

I mean you know last year we helped quite a few businesses buy businesses and so on a couple sold that have been going for a long long time.

Now the businesses and a couple of those externally you’d be like wow they must be an incredible successful business but no it was a hell of a rollercoaster to get to that stage.

So you know I think it’s yeah it’s lifting the lid up and for me and peeking inside under the bonnet the real side of a business is is an eye opener.

And yeah something that you should never whatever never feel anything.

Don’t feel threatened by other people’s success because there’s always a story you are not hearing about the app.

Just like in real life is the same thing as that whenever you meet someone you know there’s always something going on with that person behind the scenes.

There’s no one in the world who lives a perfect life of harmony and bliss.

You know there’s always a struggle right.

So please I started the communities for agencies because I was struggling.

And actually the first one ended up becoming a bit too commercial and I always wanted with agency nomics the idea was we do it as a not for profit like it’s my charity.

You know we donate all our time into that community but I’m really touched and lucky that people like yourself and everyone who’s joined in the last like we’ve got 1000 members in the first months of this are all business owners.

Everyone’s been really positive like there’s no you’ve been in there it’s like you have been the cushion.

No one’s really hating.

And I know that sometimes you might like that because you like to hear other stuff but I you know I do like that.

No but I like the yeah because everyone in there is supportive and helpful is what I’m trying to say.

And I think it’s a welcoming culture.

It’s a much richer culture than other people have to pay to join because you’re only getting the people who’ve got the money joining.

Whereas this way you get better diversity across all areas in the community is more representative.

Yeah I agree.

And that’s why I say it as I feel like there’s very low barrier to entry in that sense you know.

You can everyone wants to join everyone wants to be a part of it and they’re there because they want to be there not because they feel they need to get value for money as well because of membership.

So I love that.

So how can other people get in touch with you.

Like if they enjoy what they’ve heard they want to know more.

They want to be like how do I get my agency.

How what’s the best way to get in touch with.

That’s a very good question.

I think I’m really I’m at the stage now because when I think when you write a book suddenly everyone starts like contacting you every single day.

I would say connect on on LinkedIn.

Send me a message though.

Explain a little bit about who you are and where you’re from.

Make it like just send something a bit more detailed about your story.

And if you read my profile you’ll know how you can have me as a.

And so I guess if people want to contact you get you on LinkedIn.

Yeah basically the main makes buy your book and then yeah I guess that’s that’s it.

And and hopefully they’ll be.

I never get to plug myself lots that’s really nice.

Thank you that’s what.

Yeah we have a cactus website as well.

So do you know goes to the cactus website and now you want to redesign it but it’s very functional.

And it says on the front page will basically what we do is a bit run still but it hopefully about what we do as well and our day jobs.

So yeah good.

Now I can’t help but look at websites and want to redesign them all.

It’s a yeah disease but.

Three thousand websites in my life I understand but just fine switch off from that world now a little bit.

Thank you Spencer so much for coming in today and talking with me about agency growth and everything and what the real deal is in the agency world and how to sniff out those bullshitters.

Thank you.

Nice thank you for having me as a guest.

I really appreciate the invite.

No problem.

And thanks to everyone who tuned in today and come back next week for our next special guest.

Thank you.